Discussion:
Europe's Right-Wing Populists Find Allies in Israel
(too old to reply)
Amitai
2011-07-31 12:28:11 UTC
Permalink
This article, in the on-line International of Spiegel, is evidence
that the warnings that Israel has stepped on the slippery slope to
Fascism are not fantasy. Spiegel is a prominent, middle of the road,
German magazine, and - in case anyone has forgotten - the Germans know
something about the process.

THE LIKUD CONNECTION
Europe's Right-Wing Populists Find Allies in Israel

Here are a few excerpts:

"Islamophobic parties in Europe have established a tight network,
stretching from Italy to Finland. But recently, they have extended
their feelers to Israeli conservatives, enjoying a warm reception from
members of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's coalition. Some in
Israel believe that the populists are Europe's future."

"But recently it has become clear that Europe's populist parties
aren't merely content to establish a network on the Continent. They
are also looking further east. And have begun establishing tight
relations with several conservative politicians in Israel -- first and
foremost with Ayoob Kara, a parliamentarian with Israeli Prime
Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party who is also deputy minister
for development of the Negev and Galilee districts."
Point of information: Ayoub Kara is not Jewish; he is a Druze.

" Eliezer Cohen, known in Israel by his nickname "Cheetah," says that
leftist parties in both Europe and Israel have lost their way. Cohen,
a decorated Israeli air force colonel now in retirement, is a former
member of the Knesset with Yisrael Beiteinu, the hardline nationalist
party led by Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman that currently governs
together in a coalition with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud
party.
`Right-wing politicians in Europe are more sensitive to the dangers
facing Israel', Cohen, who gave a keynote address during Dutch right-
wing leader Geert Wilders' visit to Berlin last October, told SPIEGEL
ONLINE. `They are talking the exact same language as Likud and others
on the Israeli right. I'm too old for bullshitting -- we hope the
right wing wins out in Europe.'"

The full article, long but well worth reading, can be found at:
http://www.spiegel.de/international#ref=nlint

--
Amitai
DORIS LADAN
2011-07-31 13:32:47 UTC
Permalink
THANK YOU AMITAI FOR THIS ARTICLE :-)
....... DVORA ........
Dennis
2011-07-31 22:56:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amitai
`Right-wing politicians in Europe are more sensitive to the dangers
facing Israel', Cohen, who gave a keynote address during Dutch right-
wing leader Geert Wilders' visit to Berlin last October, told SPIEGEL
ONLINE. `They are talking the exact same language as Likud and others
on the Israeli right. I'm too old for bullshitting -- we hope the
right wing wins out in Europe.'"
http://www.spiegel.de/international#ref=nlint
That's a switch for sure!
Abe Kohen
2011-08-01 00:06:25 UTC
Permalink
Glad you decided to post, your erroneous conclusion not withstanding.

Let me ask, which German, above a certain age, has NOT had ties with Nazis?
Yet Ben Gurion had close relations with Germany from almost day one,
including "channeling" reparation money from Israeli victims of the
Holocaust to the Labor Party and its settlement division, aka, kibbutzim.
Then it was OK? But apparently not for a Druze Likudnik.

(If Glenn Beck had written this, instead of Der Spiegel (The Mirror), would
we be accusing him of anti-se,mitism?)

The Judo-Nazi (Judische Nazi) canard needs to be buried with The Protocols
of the Elders of Zion.

Best,
Abe
Post by Amitai
This article, in the on-line International of Spiegel, is evidence
that the warnings that Israel has stepped on the slippery slope to
Fascism are not fantasy. Spiegel is a prominent, middle of the road,
German magazine, and - in case anyone has forgotten - the Germans know
something about the process.
Amitai
2011-08-01 18:05:29 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 1 Aug 2011 00:06:25 +0000 (UTC), "Abe Kohen"
Post by Abe Kohen
Glad you decided to post, your erroneous conclusion not withstanding.
Let me ask, which German, above a certain age, has NOT had ties with Nazis?
Having ties with ex-Nazis is one thing. Endorsing the policies of
neo-Nazis is quite differnet.
Post by Abe Kohen
Yet Ben Gurion had close relations with Germany from almost day one,
including "channeling" reparation money from Israeli victims of the
B>Holocaust to the Labor Party and its settlement division, aka,
kibbutzim.
Post by Abe Kohen
Then it was OK?
Still living in the past, Abe, and letting your old anti-Mapai rancor
blind you to the present-day facts?!!
Post by Abe Kohen
but apparently not for a Druze Likudnik.
It is not just one Druze likudnik. "Cheetah", the ex-Air Force officer
who is quite popular in certain circles. identifies himself with the
neo-Nazis. And Cheetah is one of many.
Post by Abe Kohen
(If Glenn Beck had written this, instead of Der Spiegel (The Mirror), would
we be accusing him of anti-semitism?)
Nonsense. Glenn Beck would not have written it. Besides, it was a fact
not opinion. I'm not sure Glenn Beck would know a fact if he met one.
Post by Abe Kohen
The Judo-Nazi (Judische Nazi) canard needs to be buried with The Protocols
of the Elders of Zion.
For years I too regarded it as a canard. I regret to adnit that the
late Yeshayahu Leibowitz, who infuriated everyone (me includied) by
coining the term, was farther sighted than I was.
--
Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Best,
Abe
Post by Amitai
This article, in the on-line International of Spiegel, is evidence
that the warnings that Israel has stepped on the slippery slope to
Fascism are not fantasy. Spiegel is a prominent, middle of the road,
German magazine, and - in case anyone has forgotten - the Germans know
something about the process.
Abe Kohen
2011-08-01 20:31:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amitai
On Mon, 1 Aug 2011 00:06:25 +0000 (UTC), "Abe Kohen"
Post by Abe Kohen
Glad you decided to post, your erroneous conclusion not withstanding.
Let me ask, which German, above a certain age, has NOT had ties with Nazis?
Having ties with ex-Nazis is one thing. Endorsing the policies of
neo-Nazis is quite differnet.
What transformation does a Nazi go through to become an ex-Nazi?
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Yet Ben Gurion had close relations with Germany from almost day one,
including "channeling" reparation money from Israeli victims of the
B>Holocaust to the Labor Party and its settlement division, aka,
kibbutzim.
Post by Abe Kohen
Then it was OK?
Still living in the past, Abe, and letting your old anti-Mapai rancor
blind you to the present-day facts?!!
Goose, gander.
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
but apparently not for a Druze Likudnik.
It is not just one Druze likudnik. "Cheetah", the ex-Air Force officer
who is quite popular in certain circles. identifies himself with the
neo-Nazis. And Cheetah is one of many.
Cheetah does NOT identify himself with neo-Nazis.

Does anyone who talks to Palestinian terrorists become "identified with"
terrorists?
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
(If Glenn Beck had written this, instead of Der Spiegel (The Mirror), would
we be accusing him of anti-semitism?)
Nonsense. Glenn Beck would not have written it. Besides, it was a fact
not opinion. I'm not sure Glenn Beck would know a fact if he met one.
Post by Abe Kohen
The Judo-Nazi (Judische Nazi) canard needs to be buried with The Protocols
of the Elders of Zion.
For years I too regarded it as a canard. I regret to adnit that the
late Yeshayahu Leibowitz, who infuriated everyone (me includied) by
coining the term, was farther sighted than I was.
Just because you don't like these policies does not make them Judo-Nazi.
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Post by Amitai
This article, in the on-line International of Spiegel, is evidence
that the warnings that Israel has stepped on the slippery slope to
Fascism are not fantasy. Spiegel is a prominent, middle of the road,
German magazine, and - in case anyone has forgotten - the Germans know
something about the process.
Best,
Abe
Amitai
2011-08-02 09:26:54 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 1 Aug 2011 20:31:20 +0000 (UTC), "Abe Kohen"
Post by Abe Kohen
Post by Amitai
On Mon, 1 Aug 2011 00:06:25 +0000 (UTC), "Abe Kohen"
Post by Abe Kohen
Glad you decided to post, your erroneous conclusion not withstanding.
Let me ask, which German, above a certain age, has NOT had ties with Nazis?
Having ties with ex-Nazis is one thing. Endorsing the policies of
neo-Nazis is quite differnet.
What transformation does a Nazi go through to become an ex-Nazi?
After the Nazi party was disbanded the Nazis became ex-Nazis.

If you are referring to relations while they were still in power, I'll
grant you that all Germans has some sort of relations with them,
including that of prisoner to jailer, but what does that have to do
with the present topic: the relation of Israeli Jews to neo-fascists.
Post by Abe Kohen
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Yet Ben Gurion had close relations with Germany from almost day one,
including "channeling" reparation money from Israeli victims of the
B>Holocaust to the Labor Party and its settlement division, aka,
kibbutzim.
Adenauer was not a Nazi; not even an ex-Nazi. Neither were Brandt,
Strauss, Erhart, Kohll, etc....
Post by Abe Kohen
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Then it was OK?
Still living in the past, Abe, and letting your old anti-Mapai rancor
blind you to the present-day facts?!!
Goose, gander.
Empty words, Abe. Towards whom am I expressing rancor? Towards
Jabotinsky or Begin?
Post by Abe Kohen
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
but apparently not for a Druze Likudnik.
It is not just one Druze likudnik. "Cheetah", the ex-Air Force officer
who is quite popular in certain circles. identifies himself with the
neo-Nazis. And Cheetah is one of many.
Cheetah does NOT identify himself with neo-Nazis.
This sounds like total agreement, which is pretty close to self
identification:
"Right-wing politicians in Europe are more sensitive to the dangers
facing Israel," Cohen, who gave a keynote address during Dutch
right-wing leader Geert Wilders' visit to Berlin last October, told
SPIEGEL ONLINE. "They are talking the exact same language as Likud and
others on the Israeli right. I'm too old for bullshitting -- we hope
the right wing wins out in Europe."
Post by Abe Kohen
Does anyone who talks to Palestinian terrorists become "identified with"
terrorists?
Police talk to criminals without being "identified with" them. Police
who cooperate with criminals should be. Similarly, talking to
terrorists is often unavoidable, but saying thay you are "talking the
same language" as they are and expressing the "hope that [terrorism]
wins out" would identify you with them.
Post by Abe Kohen
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
(If Glenn Beck had written this, instead of Der Spiegel (The Mirror), would
we be accusing him of anti-semitism?)
Nonsense. Glenn Beck would not have written it. Besides, it was a fact
not opinion. I'm not sure Glenn Beck would know a fact if he met one.
Post by Abe Kohen
The Judo-Nazi (Judische Nazi) canard needs to be buried with The Protocols
of the Elders of Zion.
For years I too regarded it as a canard. I regret to adnit that the
late Yeshayahu Leibowitz, who infuriated everyone (me includied) by
coining the term, was farther sighted than I was.
Just because you don't like these policies does not make them Judo-Nazi.
I didn't bring Nazism in explicitly - the term carries too much
baggage. I stuck to neo-fascism. The direction: laws against free dom
of opinion, repression of minorities, hobbling the judiciary, is
unmistakeable. If the comparison to fascist italy, Spain or Chile
makes you more comfortable than a direct comparison to Germany in the
1930's, be my guest.
Post by Abe Kohen
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Post by Amitai
This article, in the on-line International of Spiegel, is evidence
that the warnings that Israel has stepped on the slippery slope to
Fascism are not fantasy. Spiegel is a prominent, middle of the road,
German magazine, and - in case anyone has forgotten - the Germans know
something about the process.
Best,
Abe
Yisroel Markov
2011-08-02 16:03:44 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 2 Aug 2011 09:26:54 +0000 (UTC), Amitai
Post by Amitai
On Mon, 1 Aug 2011 20:31:20 +0000 (UTC), "Abe Kohen"
[snip]
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Post by Amitai
It is not just one Druze likudnik. "Cheetah", the ex-Air Force officer
who is quite popular in certain circles. identifies himself with the
neo-Nazis. And Cheetah is one of many.
Cheetah does NOT identify himself with neo-Nazis.
This sounds like total agreement, which is pretty close to self
I thought you said it was neo-fascists rather than neo-Nazis?
Post by Amitai
"Right-wing politicians in Europe are more sensitive to the dangers
facing Israel," Cohen, who gave a keynote address during Dutch
right-wing leader Geert Wilders' visit to Berlin last October, told
SPIEGEL ONLINE. "They are talking the exact same language as Likud and
others on the Israeli right. I'm too old for bullshitting -- we hope
the right wing wins out in Europe."
This sounds like an agreement with their concerns and appreciation of
their understanding of Israel's situation. Not with their ideology,
necessarily. Seems like another case of "the enemy of my enemy, etc."
and willingness to tolerate fleas.

[snip]
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Just because you don't like these policies does not make them Judo-Nazi.
I didn't bring Nazism in explicitly - the term carries too much
baggage. I stuck to neo-fascism.
You didn't, but let's say you did, that having been the (proper)
intent.
Post by Amitai
The direction: laws against freedom
of opinion, repression of minorities, hobbling the judiciary, is
unmistakeable. If the comparison to fascist italy, Spain or Chile
makes you more comfortable than a direct comparison to Germany in the
1930's, be my guest.
Opposition to building of minarets doesn't, IMHO, rise to the level of
"repression of minorities," but the direction is, indeed, there. And
it's a legitimate concern. Including, apparently, in Israel, where
there are plenty of ideologues on both sides willing to repress the
other side.
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
Amitai
2011-08-02 22:08:06 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 2 Aug 2011 16:03:44 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
Post by Yisroel Markov
On Tue, 2 Aug 2011 09:26:54 +0000 (UTC), Amitai
Post by Amitai
On Mon, 1 Aug 2011 20:31:20 +0000 (UTC), "Abe Kohen"
[snip]
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Post by Amitai
It is not just one Druze likudnik. "Cheetah", the ex-Air Force officer
who is quite popular in certain circles. identifies himself with the
neo-Nazis. And Cheetah is one of many.
Cheetah does NOT identify himself with neo-Nazis.
This sounds like total agreement, which is pretty close to self
I thought you said it was neo-fascists rather than neo-Nazis?
Yisroel, your snipping of the attributions distorts the picture.
Here is how I introduced the Spiegel article:

"This article, in the on-line International of Spiegel, is evidence
that the warnings that Israel has stepped on the slippery slope to
Fascism are not fantasy. Spiegel is a prominent, middle of the road,
German magazine, and - in case anyone has forgotten - the Germans know
something about the process."

No mention of Nazis until Abe brought it up:
------------------
Abe: Glad you decided to post, your erroneous conclusion not
withstanding.
Let me ask, which German, above a certain age, has NOT had ties with
Nazis?

Me: Having ties with ex-Nazis is one thing. Endorsing the policies of
neo-Nazis is quite differnet.

Abe: Yet Ben Gurion had close relations with Germany from almost day
one,
including "channeling" reparation money from Israeli victims of the
Holocaust to the Labor Party and its settlement division, aka,
kibbutzim.
Then it was OK?

Me, responding: Still living in the past, Abe, and letting your old
anti-Mapai rancor
blind you to the present-day facts?!!

Abe: but apparently not for a Druze Likudnik.

Me, responding: It is not just one Druze likudnik. "Cheetah", the
ex-Air Force officer who is quite popular in certain circles,
identifies himself with the neo-Nazis. And Cheetah is one of many.
----------------

Since Cheetah was speaking in Berlin, his neo-fascist companions were
indeed neo-Nazis. Abe conceded that he was talking to them. My
rejoinder was that he was not just talking to them but agreeing with
them. I could hardly avoid "Nazi" at that point.
Post by Yisroel Markov
Post by Amitai
"Right-wing politicians in Europe are more sensitive to the dangers
facing Israel," Cohen, who gave a keynote address during Dutch
right-wing leader Geert Wilders' visit to Berlin last October, told
SPIEGEL ONLINE. "They are talking the exact same language as Likud and
others on the Israeli right. I'm too old for bullshitting -- we hope
the right wing wins out in Europe."
This sounds like an agreement with their concerns and appreciation of
their understanding of Israel's situation. Not with their ideology,
necessarily. Seems like another case of "the enemy of my enemy, etc."
and willingness to tolerate fleas.
The wish that the neo-Fascists take over Europe goes beyond that.
Besides, don't underestimate fleas. From Wikipedia:
"The most deadly flea-borne disease is the bubonic plague. Plague
cases in humans are not common anymore; however, it is still
exceptionally serious. Other flea-borne diseases include flea-borne
typhus, bartonella henselae (cat scratch fever), several other
bartonella strains including bartonella grahamii, bartonella taylorii
and bartonella quintana."
Read more: Which Diseases Do Fleas Carry? |
http://www.ehow.com/about_4580124_which-diseases-do-fleas-carry.html#ixzz1TuHKJpHf
Post by Yisroel Markov
[snip]
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Just because you don't like these policies does not make them Judo-Nazi.
I didn't bring Nazism in explicitly - the term carries too much
baggage. I stuck to neo-fascism.
You didn't, but let's say you did, that having been the (proper)
intent.
Technically, "I didn't bring Nazism in explicitly" is a correct
statement; Abe did. But who wants to get off on a technicality?
At least I prefaced the naughty word with "neo".
Post by Yisroel Markov
Post by Amitai
The direction: laws against freedom
of opinion, repression of minorities, hobbling the judiciary, is
unmistakeable. If the comparison to fascist italy, Spain or Chile
makes you more comfortable than a direct comparison to Germany in the
1930's, be my guest.
Opposition to building of minarets doesn't, IMHO, rise to the level of
"repression of minorities," but the direction is, indeed, there. And
it's a legitimate concern. Including, apparently, in Israel, where
there are plenty of ideologues on both sides willing to repress the
other side.
The power is Israelat present is all on one side, as is the
repressive legislation.

--
Amitai
m***@mm.huji.ac.il
2011-08-04 10:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amitai
Post by Yisroel Markov
Post by Amitai
On Mon, 1 Aug 2011 20:31:20 +0000 (UTC), "Abe Kohen"
[snip]
Post by Amitai
"Right-wing politicians in Europe are more sensitive to the dangers
facing Israel," Cohen, who gave a keynote address during Dutch
right-wing leader Geert Wilders' visit to Berlin last October, told
SPIEGEL ONLINE. "They are talking the exact same language as Likud and
others on the Israeli right. I'm too old for bullshitting -- we hope
the right wing wins out in Europe."
This sounds like an agreement with their concerns and appreciation of
their understanding of Israel's situation. Not with their ideology,
necessarily. Seems like another case of "the enemy of my enemy, etc."
and willingness to tolerate fleas.
The wish that the neo-Fascists take over Europe goes beyond that.
Again you make the absolute equation, "right wing" = "neo-Fascists".
I don't think that's true,
Post by Amitai
"The most deadly flea-borne disease is the bubonic plague. Plague
cases in humans are not common anymore; however, it is still
exceptionally serious. Other flea-borne diseases include flea-borne
typhus, bartonella henselae (cat scratch fever), several other
bartonella strains including bartonella grahamii, bartonella taylorii
and bartonella quintana."
Read more: Which Diseases Do Fleas Carry? |
http://www.ehow.com/about_4580124_which-diseases-do-fleas-carry.html#ixzz1TuHKJpHf
LOL. Thanks Amitai for bringing a spot of humor into this discussion.
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
Yisroel Markov
2011-08-04 13:44:32 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 2 Aug 2011 22:08:06 +0000 (UTC), Amitai
Post by Amitai
On Tue, 2 Aug 2011 16:03:44 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
Post by Yisroel Markov
On Tue, 2 Aug 2011 09:26:54 +0000 (UTC), Amitai
Post by Amitai
On Mon, 1 Aug 2011 20:31:20 +0000 (UTC), "Abe Kohen"
[snip]
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Post by Amitai
It is not just one Druze likudnik. "Cheetah", the ex-Air Force officer
who is quite popular in certain circles. identifies himself with the
neo-Nazis. And Cheetah is one of many.
Cheetah does NOT identify himself with neo-Nazis.
This sounds like total agreement, which is pretty close to self
I thought you said it was neo-fascists rather than neo-Nazis?
Yisroel, your snipping of the attributions distorts the picture.
[snip]
Post by Amitai
Me, responding: It is not just one Druze likudnik. "Cheetah", the
ex-Air Force officer who is quite popular in certain circles,
identifies himself with the neo-Nazis. And Cheetah is one of many.
----------------
Since Cheetah was speaking in Berlin, his neo-fascist companions were
indeed neo-Nazis.
Are you sure? Is it their nationality or the location that makes them
neo-Nazis?

Come to think about it, do they advocate state control of private
industry, including the press, and suppresion of other freedoms, as
would befit fascists? Anti-immigrant populism is an important
component of national socialism, but hardly a sufficient one. And
Nazism is yet a step further into actual destruction of minorities.
Post by Amitai
Abe conceded that he was talking to them. My
rejoinder was that he was not just talking to them but agreeing with
them. I could hardly avoid "Nazi" at that point.
OK, I understand.
Post by Amitai
Post by Yisroel Markov
Post by Amitai
"Right-wing politicians in Europe are more sensitive to the dangers
facing Israel," Cohen, who gave a keynote address during Dutch
right-wing leader Geert Wilders' visit to Berlin last October, told
SPIEGEL ONLINE. "They are talking the exact same language as Likud and
others on the Israeli right. I'm too old for bullshitting -- we hope
the right wing wins out in Europe."
This sounds like an agreement with their concerns and appreciation of
their understanding of Israel's situation. Not with their ideology,
necessarily. Seems like another case of "the enemy of my enemy, etc."
and willingness to tolerate fleas.
The wish that the neo-Fascists take over Europe goes beyond that.
Do you think it's more than the choice of a lesser evil? AIUI, many
people are concerned that the left in Europe will not stand up and
defend its values against a [perceived] anti-democratic minority in
their midst.
Post by Amitai
"The most deadly flea-borne disease is the bubonic plague. Plague
cases in humans are not common anymore; however, it is still
exceptionally serious. Other flea-borne diseases include flea-borne
typhus, bartonella henselae (cat scratch fever), several other
bartonella strains including bartonella grahamii, bartonella taylorii
and bartonella quintana."
Read more: Which Diseases Do Fleas Carry? |
http://www.ehow.com/about_4580124_which-diseases-do-fleas-carry.html#ixzz1TuHKJpHf
Post by Yisroel Markov
[snip]
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Just because you don't like these policies does not make them Judo-Nazi.
I didn't bring Nazism in explicitly - the term carries too much
baggage. I stuck to neo-fascism.
You didn't, but let's say you did, that having been the (proper)
intent.
Technically, "I didn't bring Nazism in explicitly" is a correct
statement; Abe did. But who wants to get off on a technicality?
At least I prefaced the naughty word with "neo".
Post by Yisroel Markov
Post by Amitai
The direction: laws against freedom
of opinion, repression of minorities, hobbling the judiciary, is
unmistakeable. If the comparison to fascist italy, Spain or Chile
makes you more comfortable than a direct comparison to Germany in the
1930's, be my guest.
Opposition to building of minarets doesn't, IMHO, rise to the level of
"repression of minorities," but the direction is, indeed, there. And
it's a legitimate concern. Including, apparently, in Israel, where
there are plenty of ideologues on both sides willing to repress the
other side.
The power is Israelat present is all on one side, as is the
repressive legislation.
At present, yes. Freedom needs to be guarded from all sides.
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
m***@mm.huji.ac.il
2011-08-04 13:28:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Glad you decided to post, your erroneous conclusion not withstanding.
Let me ask, which German, above a certain age, has NOT had ties with Nazis?
Having ties with ex-Nazis is one thing. Endorsing the policies of
neo-Nazis is quite differnet.
What transformation does a Nazi go through to become an ex-Nazi?
After the Nazi party was disbanded the Nazis became ex-Nazis.
If you are referring to relations while they were still in power, I'll
grant you that all Germans has some sort of relations with them,
including that of prisoner to jailer, but what does that have to do
with the present topic: the relation of Israeli Jews to neo-fascists.
Post by Abe Kohen
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Yet Ben Gurion had close relations with Germany from almost day one,
including "channeling" reparation money from Israeli victims of the
B>Holocaust to the Labor Party and its settlement division, aka,
kibbutzim.
Adenauer was not a Nazi; not even an ex-Nazi. Neither were Brandt,
Strauss, Erhart, Kohll, etc....
Post by Abe Kohen
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Then it was OK?
Still living in the past, Abe, and letting your old anti-Mapai rancor
blind you to the present-day facts?!!
Goose, gander.
Empty words, Abe. Towards whom am I expressing rancor? Towards
Jabotinsky or Begin?
Post by Abe Kohen
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
but apparently not for a Druze Likudnik.
It is not just one Druze likudnik. "Cheetah", the ex-Air Force
officer who is quite popular in certain circles. identifies
himself with the neo-Nazis. And Cheetah is one of many.
Cheetah does NOT identify himself with neo-Nazis.
This sounds like total agreement, which is pretty close to self
"Right-wing politicians in Europe are more sensitive to the dangers
facing Israel," Cohen, who gave a keynote address during Dutch
right-wing leader Geert Wilders' visit to Berlin last October, told
SPIEGEL ONLINE. "They are talking the exact same language as Likud and
others on the Israeli right. I'm too old for bullshitting -- we hope
the right wing wins out in Europe."
Amitai, that's _only_ if you make the equation "right wing" EQUALS
"neo-Nazis". I'm sure Cheetah does _not_ make that equation. I'm
surprised you do.

snip
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
Post by Amitai
Post by Abe Kohen
The Judo-Nazi (Judische Nazi) canard needs to be buried with The Protocols
of the Elders of Zion.
For years I too regarded it as a canard. I regret to adnit that the
late Yeshayahu Leibowitz, who infuriated everyone (me includied) by
coining the term, was farther sighted than I was.
Just because you don't like these policies does not make them Judo-Nazi.
I didn't bring Nazism in explicitly - the term carries too much
baggage. I stuck to neo-fascism. The direction: laws against freedom
of opinion, repression of minorities, hobbling the judiciary, is
unmistakeable. If the comparison to fascist italy, Spain or Chile
makes you more comfortable than a direct comparison to Germany in the
1930's, be my guest.
I think you're painting those laws, which I agree are problematic,
as more than they actually say. But it does bear watching.
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
Itzhak Schier
2011-08-04 20:54:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amitai
On Mon, 1 Aug 2011 00:06:25 +0000 (UTC), "Abe Kohen"
Nonsense. Glenn Beck would not have written it. Besides, it was a fact
not opinion. I'm not sure Glenn Beck would know a fact if he met one.>The Judo-Nazi (Judische Nazi) canard needs to be buried with The Protocols
Post by Abe Kohen
of the Elders of Zion.
For years I too  regarded it as a canard.  I regret to adnit that the
late Yeshayahu Leibowitz, who infuriated everyone (me includied) by
coining the term, was farther sighted than I was.
--

There is a video of Leibowitz OLBM speaking about the Lubavitcher
Rebbe ZYA circulating on You Tube, and it reminds me of poor old Saba
Na Nach (Reb Yisroel Ber Odesser AH) rambling about everything and
anything after he was long, long past his prime. The difference is
that Saba Na Nach was harmless. I am not even bothered by Leibowitz's
hateful and jealous ramblings because he is a parody of himself.People
looked to Leibowitz, who was just a bitter old fool with a few
degrees, for real guidance. In reality, Leibowitz was much like
Yisroel Dovid Weiss of the rump Neturei Karta - just looking for
attention by vomiting out hurtful nonsense that shocks people.

If you agree with this fool who equated Jews who are defending Eretz
Yisroel with Nazis, then what are you doing in the Land? Go join Hass
in Ramallah.

m***@mm.huji.ac.il
2011-08-01 09:29:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amitai
This article, in the on-line International of Spiegel, is evidence
that the warnings that Israel has stepped on the slippery slope to
Fascism are not fantasy. Spiegel is a prominent, middle of the road,
German magazine, and - in case anyone has forgotten - the Germans know
something about the process.
THE LIKUD CONNECTION
Europe's Right-Wing Populists Find Allies in Israel
"Islamophobic parties in Europe have established a tight network,
stretching from Italy to Finland. But recently, they have extended
their feelers to Israeli conservatives, enjoying a warm reception from
members of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's coalition. Some in
Israel believe that the populists are Europe's future."
"But recently it has become clear that Europe's populist parties
aren't merely content to establish a network on the Continent. They
are also looking further east. And have begun establishing tight
relations with several conservative politicians in Israel -- first and
foremost with Ayoob Kara, a parliamentarian with Israeli Prime
Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party who is also deputy minister
for development of the Negev and Galilee districts."
Point of information: Ayoub Kara is not Jewish; he is a Druze.
" Eliezer Cohen, known in Israel by his nickname "Cheetah," says that
leftist parties in both Europe and Israel have lost their way. Cohen,
a decorated Israeli air force colonel now in retirement, is a former
member of the Knesset with Yisrael Beiteinu, the hardline nationalist
party led by Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman that currently governs
together in a coalition with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud
party.
`Right-wing politicians in Europe are more sensitive to the dangers
facing Israel', Cohen, who gave a keynote address during Dutch right-
wing leader Geert Wilders' visit to Berlin last October, told SPIEGEL
ONLINE. `They are talking the exact same language as Likud and others
on the Israeli right. I'm too old for bullshitting -- we hope the
right wing wins out in Europe.'"
http://www.spiegel.de/international#ref=nlint
Those excerpts are all on one side of the issue. There are other,
more positive statements there. I like the last paragraph:
"There are areas where we Europeans cannot sleep, where we can't
remain silent," says Strache. "Israel is in danger of being
destroyed. Were that to happen, it would also result in Europe
losing its foundation for existence."

As you say it's well worth reading.
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
lee
2011-08-01 13:28:20 UTC
Permalink
To me these development6s are extremely worrying. As racist parties are
gaining a toehold with anti muslim popularism, in a way that they never
really suceeded with previous racist campaigns (post ww2 that is). & it
amazes me that some Jews & Israeli make common cause with them. it makes me
wonder would we have supported Ratko Mladic in a similar way, for similar
reasons?
Post by Amitai
This article, in the on-line International of Spiegel, is evidence
that the warnings that Israel has stepped on the slippery slope to
Fascism are not fantasy. Spiegel is a prominent, middle of the road,
German magazine, and - in case anyone has forgotten - the Germans know
something about the process.
THE LIKUD CONNECTION
Europe's Right-Wing Populists Find Allies in Israel
"Islamophobic parties in Europe have established a tight network,
stretching from Italy to Finland. But recently, they have extended
their feelers to Israeli conservatives, enjoying a warm reception from
members of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's coalition. Some in
Israel believe that the populists are Europe's future."
"But recently it has become clear that Europe's populist parties
aren't merely content to establish a network on the Continent. They
are also looking further east. And have begun establishing tight
relations with several conservative politicians in Israel -- first and
foremost with Ayoob Kara, a parliamentarian with Israeli Prime
Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party who is also deputy minister
for development of the Negev and Galilee districts."
Point of information: Ayoub Kara is not Jewish; he is a Druze.
" Eliezer Cohen, known in Israel by his nickname "Cheetah," says that
leftist parties in both Europe and Israel have lost their way. Cohen,
a decorated Israeli air force colonel now in retirement, is a former
member of the Knesset with Yisrael Beiteinu, the hardline nationalist
party led by Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman that currently governs
together in a coalition with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud
party.
`Right-wing politicians in Europe are more sensitive to the dangers
facing Israel', Cohen, who gave a keynote address during Dutch right-
wing leader Geert Wilders' visit to Berlin last October, told SPIEGEL
ONLINE. `They are talking the exact same language as Likud and others
on the Israeli right. I'm too old for bullshitting -- we hope the
right wing wins out in Europe.'"
http://www.spiegel.de/international#ref=nlint
--
Amitai
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