Discussion:
How Faith Saved the Atheist
(too old to reply)
Yisroel Markov
2006-07-21 17:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Why did the doctors stop asking me to pull the plug?

BY PAMELA R. WINNICK
Friday, July 21, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

[...]

Afflicted with asbestos-related lung cancer, my father, Louis Winnick,
was rushed into the ICU in late May after a blood clot nearly killed
him. The next day, my husband and I raced to New York from Pittsburgh.
I packed enough work and knitting for what might be an extended stay,
but I also put in a suit for what I was certain would be my father's
imminent funeral. Still, he wasn't dead yet. And we had no intention
of precipitating the inevitable.

[...]

I complained about all the death-with-dignity pressure to my father's
doctor, an Orthodox Jew, who said that his religion forbids the
termination of care but that he would be perfectly willing to "look
the other way" if we wanted my father to die. We didn't. Then a light
bulb went off in my head. We could devise a strategy to fend off the
death-happy residents: We would tell them we were Orthodox Jews.

My little ruse worked. During the few days after I announced this faux
fact, it was as though an invisible fence had been drawn around my
mother, my sister and me. No one dared mutter that hateful phrase
"death with dignity."

Though my father was born to an Orthodox Jewish family, he is an
avowed atheist who long ago had rejected his parents' ways. As I sat
in the ICU, blips on the various screens the only proof that my father
was alive, the irony struck me: My father, who had long ago rejected
Orthodox Judaism, was now under its protection.

As though to confirm this, there came a series of miracles. Just a
week after he was rushed to ICU, my father was pronounced well enough
to be moved out of the unit into North Shore's long-term respiratory
care unit. A day later he was off the respirator, able to breathe on
his own. He still mostly slept, but then he began to awaken for
minutes at a time, at first groggy, but soon he was as alert (and
funny) as ever. A day later, we walked in to find him sitting upright
in a chair, reading the New York Times.

Full article at http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110008686

Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
cindys
2006-07-21 21:05:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yisroel Markov
Why did the doctors stop asking me to pull the plug?
BY PAMELA R. WINNICK
Friday, July 21, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT
[...]
Afflicted with asbestos-related lung cancer, my father, Louis Winnick,
was rushed into the ICU in late May after a blood clot nearly killed
him. The next day, my husband and I raced to New York from Pittsburgh.
I packed enough work and knitting for what might be an extended stay,
but I also put in a suit for what I was certain would be my father's
imminent funeral. Still, he wasn't dead yet. And we had no intention
of precipitating the inevitable.
[...]
I complained about all the death-with-dignity pressure to my father's
doctor, an Orthodox Jew, who said that his religion forbids the
termination of care but that he would be perfectly willing to "look
the other way" if we wanted my father to die. We didn't. Then a light
bulb went off in my head. We could devise a strategy to fend off the
death-happy residents: We would tell them we were Orthodox Jews.
My little ruse worked.
-----------
Well, it didn't work when I tried it (when my father was dying), as I have
posted here before. The pressure to sign a DNR (do not resuscitate) order
was unrelenting (no matter what we said).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Post by Yisroel Markov
During the few days after I announced this faux
fact, it was as though an invisible fence had been drawn around my
mother, my sister and me. No one dared mutter that hateful phrase
"death with dignity."
Though my father was born to an Orthodox Jewish family, he is an
avowed atheist who long ago had rejected his parents' ways. As I sat
in the ICU, blips on the various screens the only proof that my father
was alive, the irony struck me: My father, who had long ago rejected
Orthodox Judaism, was now under its protection.
As though to confirm this, there came a series of miracles. Just a
week after he was rushed to ICU, my father was pronounced well enough
to be moved out of the unit into North Shore's long-term respiratory
care unit. A day later he was off the respirator, able to breathe on
his own. He still mostly slept, but then he began to awaken for
minutes at a time, at first groggy, but soon he was as alert (and
funny) as ever. A day later, we walked in to find him sitting upright
in a chair, reading the New York Times.
Full article at http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110008686
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
Kara
2006-07-22 21:59:40 UTC
Permalink
I am a former coma patient and was on more tubes that Terri Schiavo
ever was.

My parents were put under great pressure to remove me from life
support. And yes, there was even trickery. Staff went up to my parents
saying that my husband had agreed to certain things, but that they just
needed my parents verification that it was ok. My parents became
suspicous and found out it was a lie. My husband had not agreed to
anything!

Sometimes I wonder if it was just about money--that possibly they could
make money off my body parts. I suppose I will never know.
Chano
2006-07-23 08:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kara
I am a former coma patient and was on more tubes that Terri Schiavo
ever was.
My parents were put under great pressure to remove me from life
support. And yes, there was even trickery. Staff went up to my parents
saying that my husband had agreed to certain things, but that they just
needed my parents verification that it was ok. My parents became
suspicous and found out it was a lie. My husband had not agreed to
anything!
Sometimes I wonder if it was just about money--that possibly they could
make money off my body parts. I suppose I will never know.
It's nice to see all of you posting here! :-)
--
Chano
cindys
2006-07-23 17:30:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kara
I am a former coma patient and was on more tubes that Terri Schiavo
ever was.
My parents were put under great pressure to remove me from life
support. And yes, there was even trickery. Staff went up to my parents
saying that my husband had agreed to certain things, but that they just
needed my parents verification that it was ok. My parents became
suspicous and found out it was a lie. My husband had not agreed to
anything!
Sometimes I wonder if it was just about money--that possibly they could
make money off my body parts. I suppose I will never know.
---------------
It is about money but not about making money off your body parts. Years ago,
people who were comatose and/or in a vegetative state died much quicker
because the technology didn't exist to save them, but with the advances in
technology, people can be kept on life support indefinitely. The cost of
health care is astronomical, and the cost of maintaining someone on life
support (equipment, hospital space, staff, etc) can cost hospitals and
insurance companies hundreds or thousands of dollars per day. And if a
person is comatose for a long period of time and/or either in a vegetative
state or moving toward a vegetative state, these expenses could be ongoing
for months, if not years, potentially costing hundreds of thousands if not
millions of dollars. Insurance companies are in business to make money, not
go broke. It's harsh, but unfortunately, it's the reality.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
f***@verizon.net
2006-08-01 06:21:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kara
I am a former coma patient and was on more tubes that Terri Schiavo
ever was.
My parents were put under great pressure to remove me from life
support. And yes, there was even trickery. Staff went up to my parents
saying that my husband had agreed to certain things, but that they just
needed my parents verification that it was ok. My parents became
suspicous and found out it was a lie. My husband had not agreed to
anything!
While I wiuld not put it past them, this might *also* have just been
bumbling on their parts.
Post by Kara
Sometimes I wonder if it was just about money--that possibly they could
make money off my body parts. I suppose I will never know.
Its definitely cheaper to let someone die than keep him/her alive;
and they could sure use your bed.

Susan
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
2006-07-23 17:40:06 UTC
Permalink
"Yisroel Markov" <***@MUNGiname.com> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: Why did the doctors stop asking me to pull the plug?
:
: BY PAMELA R. WINNICK
: Friday, July 21, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT
:
: [...]
:
: Afflicted with asbestos-related lung cancer, my father, Louis Winnick,
: was rushed into the ICU in late May after a blood clot nearly killed
: him. The next day, my husband and I raced to New York from Pittsburgh.
: I packed enough work and knitting for what might be an extended stay,
: but I also put in a suit for what I was certain would be my father's
: imminent funeral. Still, he wasn't dead yet. And we had no intention
: of precipitating the inevitable.
:
: [...]
:
: I complained about all the death-with-dignity pressure to my father's
: doctor, an Orthodox Jew, who said that his religion forbids the
: termination of care but that he would be perfectly willing to "look
: the other way" if we wanted my father to die. We didn't. Then a light
: bulb went off in my head. We could devise a strategy to fend off the
: death-happy residents: We would tell them we were Orthodox Jews.
:
: My little ruse worked. During the few days after I announced this faux
: fact, it was as though an invisible fence had been drawn around my
: mother, my sister and me. No one dared mutter that hateful phrase
: "death with dignity."
:
: Though my father was born to an Orthodox Jewish family, he is an
: avowed atheist who long ago had rejected his parents' ways. As I sat
: in the ICU, blips on the various screens the only proof that my father
: was alive, the irony struck me: My father, who had long ago rejected
: Orthodox Judaism, was now under its protection.
:
: As though to confirm this, there came a series of miracles. Just a
: week after he was rushed to ICU, my father was pronounced well enough
: to be moved out of the unit into North Shore's long-term respiratory
: care unit. A day later he was off the respirator, able to breathe on
: his own. He still mostly slept, but then he began to awaken for
: minutes at a time, at first groggy, but soon he was as alert (and
: funny) as ever. A day later, we walked in to find him sitting upright
: in a chair, reading the New York Times.
:
: Full article at http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110008686
:
: Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
: www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
: --------------------------------------------------------------------
: "Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand

How much of this is pressure is there out there? I have not seen as much of it
here in the Midwest. When the Terri Schivo case was going on, there was an
article in USA Today on how widely varied the laws where. Some states only the
direct family (husband/wife) can make that decision, other states it is a
combination of spouses and parents and others it is totally up in the air.

The medical community has reasons, along with the government, to kill off the
really sick and crippled. It is money. If we ever have national health care,
forced termination will be part of it as a means to keep costs down.

I feel that religious people, Jewish or Christian, are going to be right at the
middle of this fight. On the other side are those, like Prof, Peter Singer of
Princeton, who believe that we should kill off those who are expensive (the
sick, the old, the crippled).

I am thankful that this gentleman recovered. May he have long life....
cindys
2006-07-23 19:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
: Why did the doctors stop asking me to pull the plug?
: BY PAMELA R. WINNICK
: Friday, July 21, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT
: [...]
: Afflicted with asbestos-related lung cancer, my father, Louis Winnick,
: was rushed into the ICU in late May after a blood clot nearly killed
: him. The next day, my husband and I raced to New York from Pittsburgh.
: I packed enough work and knitting for what might be an extended stay,
: but I also put in a suit for what I was certain would be my father's
: imminent funeral. Still, he wasn't dead yet. And we had no intention
: of precipitating the inevitable.
: [...]
: I complained about all the death-with-dignity pressure to my father's
: doctor, an Orthodox Jew, who said that his religion forbids the
: termination of care but that he would be perfectly willing to "look
: the other way" if we wanted my father to die. We didn't. Then a light
: bulb went off in my head. We could devise a strategy to fend off the
: death-happy residents: We would tell them we were Orthodox Jews.
: My little ruse worked. During the few days after I announced this faux
: fact, it was as though an invisible fence had been drawn around my
: mother, my sister and me. No one dared mutter that hateful phrase
: "death with dignity."
: Though my father was born to an Orthodox Jewish family, he is an
: avowed atheist who long ago had rejected his parents' ways. As I sat
: in the ICU, blips on the various screens the only proof that my father
: was alive, the irony struck me: My father, who had long ago rejected
: Orthodox Judaism, was now under its protection.
: As though to confirm this, there came a series of miracles. Just a
: week after he was rushed to ICU, my father was pronounced well enough
: to be moved out of the unit into North Shore's long-term respiratory
: care unit. A day later he was off the respirator, able to breathe on
: his own. He still mostly slept, but then he began to awaken for
: minutes at a time, at first groggy, but soon he was as alert (and
: funny) as ever. A day later, we walked in to find him sitting upright
: in a chair, reading the New York Times.
: Full article at http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110008686
: Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
: www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
: --------------------------------------------------------------------
: "Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
How much of this is pressure is there out there? I have not seen as much of it
here in the Midwest. When the Terri Schivo case was going on, there was an
article in USA Today on how widely varied the laws where. Some states only the
direct family (husband/wife) can make that decision, other states it is a
combination of spouses and parents and others it is totally up in the air.
-----------
My father never designated a health care proxy. Despite the ongoing pressure
from hospital staff, my mother refused to be intimidated into signing the
DNR order. When my father began to crash, and I was the one at his side (my
mother was at home babysitting for my young son, waiting for my return, so
she could visit my father). All of a sudden, the medical staff was
pressuring *me* to sign the DNR order. To the best of my knowledge, even if
I had wanted to sign it, I didn't have the authority. I always wondered who
gave the hospital staff the authority to decide on their own that I had the
authority to overturn my mother's decision? They tried very hard to
intimidate me into signing the DNR order. When, I still refused, they
slow-coded my father anyway [took their sweet time getting the crash cart to
ensure that resuscitation efforts would fail]. The lesson to be learned is:
Everyone should designate a health care proxy and ensure that the proxy will
act in accordance with his/her wishes. We often incorrectly think that the
only purpose of a proxy is to give the hospital staff permission to pull the
plug. On the contrary, the proxy could be the person who is doing everything
in his/her power to fight the hospital staff to ensure that doesn't happen.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
l***@gmail.com
2006-07-23 21:25:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
Post by Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
: Why did the doctors stop asking me to pull the plug?
: BY PAMELA R. WINNICK
: Friday, July 21, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT
: [...]
: Afflicted with asbestos-related lung cancer, my father, Louis Winnick,
: was rushed into the ICU in late May after a blood clot nearly killed
: him. The next day, my husband and I raced to New York from Pittsburgh.
: I packed enough work and knitting for what might be an extended stay,
: but I also put in a suit for what I was certain would be my father's
: imminent funeral. Still, he wasn't dead yet. And we had no intention
: of precipitating the inevitable.
: [...]
: I complained about all the death-with-dignity pressure to my father's
: doctor, an Orthodox Jew, who said that his religion forbids the
: termination of care but that he would be perfectly willing to "look
: the other way" if we wanted my father to die. We didn't. Then a light
: bulb went off in my head. We could devise a strategy to fend off the
: death-happy residents: We would tell them we were Orthodox Jews.
: My little ruse worked. During the few days after I announced this faux
: fact, it was as though an invisible fence had been drawn around my
: mother, my sister and me. No one dared mutter that hateful phrase
: "death with dignity."
: Though my father was born to an Orthodox Jewish family, he is an
: avowed atheist who long ago had rejected his parents' ways. As I sat
: in the ICU, blips on the various screens the only proof that my father
: was alive, the irony struck me: My father, who had long ago rejected
: Orthodox Judaism, was now under its protection.
: As though to confirm this, there came a series of miracles. Just a
: week after he was rushed to ICU, my father was pronounced well enough
: to be moved out of the unit into North Shore's long-term respiratory
: care unit. A day later he was off the respirator, able to breathe on
: his own. He still mostly slept, but then he began to awaken for
: minutes at a time, at first groggy, but soon he was as alert (and
: funny) as ever. A day later, we walked in to find him sitting upright
: in a chair, reading the New York Times.
: Full article at http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110008686
: Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
: www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
: --------------------------------------------------------------------
: "Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
How much of this is pressure is there out there? I have not seen as much
of it
Post by Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
here in the Midwest. When the Terri Schivo case was going on, there was
an
Post by Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
article in USA Today on how widely varied the laws where. Some states
only the
Post by Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
direct family (husband/wife) can make that decision, other states it is a
combination of spouses and parents and others it is totally up in the air.
-----------
My father never designated a health care proxy. Despite the ongoing pressure
from hospital staff, my mother refused to be intimidated into signing the
DNR order. When my father began to crash, and I was the one at his side (my
mother was at home babysitting for my young son, waiting for my return, so
she could visit my father). All of a sudden, the medical staff was
pressuring *me* to sign the DNR order. To the best of my knowledge, even if
I had wanted to sign it, I didn't have the authority. I always wondered who
gave the hospital staff the authority to decide on their own that I had the
authority to overturn my mother's decision? They tried very hard to
intimidate me into signing the DNR order. When, I still refused, they
slow-coded my father anyway [took their sweet time getting the crash cart to
Everyone should designate a health care proxy and ensure that the proxy will
act in accordance with his/her wishes. We often incorrectly think that the
only purpose of a proxy is to give the hospital staff permission to pull the
plug. On the contrary, the proxy could be the person who is doing everything
in his/her power to fight the hospital staff to ensure that doesn't happen.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Cindy, you are correct, but in New Jersey, where I live, you need two
things: a health care proxy (allowing whomever to decide for you,
should you be incapacitated) AND a living will. The living will states
your wishes (to be resuscitated, not to be, to use or not to use heroic
measures, machinery, etc.). I was told that this is in case the proxy
encounters resistance from doctors who may think they know better than
your proxy. A living will ALONE can't do much (for one thing, the
doctors may not know its contents in the case of an emergency). Both
documents together give you more protection.

Depending on your state,. the rules will likely vary.

Jay
cindys
2006-07-23 22:29:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
My father never designated a health care proxy. Despite the ongoing pressure
from hospital staff, my mother refused to be intimidated into signing the
DNR order. When my father began to crash, and I was the one at his side (my
mother was at home babysitting for my young son, waiting for my return, so
she could visit my father). All of a sudden, the medical staff was
pressuring *me* to sign the DNR order. To the best of my knowledge, even if
I had wanted to sign it, I didn't have the authority. I always wondered who
gave the hospital staff the authority to decide on their own that I had the
authority to overturn my mother's decision? They tried very hard to
intimidate me into signing the DNR order. When, I still refused, they
slow-coded my father anyway [took their sweet time getting the crash cart to
Everyone should designate a health care proxy and ensure that the proxy will
act in accordance with his/her wishes. We often incorrectly think that the
only purpose of a proxy is to give the hospital staff permission to pull the
plug. On the contrary, the proxy could be the person who is doing everything
in his/her power to fight the hospital staff to ensure that doesn't happen.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Cindy, you are correct, but in New Jersey, where I live, you need two
things: a health care proxy (allowing whomever to decide for you,
should you be incapacitated) AND a living will. The living will states
your wishes (to be resuscitated, not to be, to use or not to use heroic
measures, machinery, etc.). I was told that this is in case the proxy
encounters resistance from doctors who may think they know better than
your proxy. A living will ALONE can't do much (for one thing, the
doctors may not know its contents in the case of an emergency). Both
documents together give you more protection.
Depending on your state,. the rules will likely vary.
--------
Thanks, Jay. That's really important to know. I hope everyone takes it very
seriously.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Beach Runner
2006-07-24 11:28:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yisroel Markov
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
My father never designated a health care proxy. Despite the ongoing
pressure
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
from hospital staff, my mother refused to be intimidated into signing
the
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
DNR order. When my father began to crash, and I was the one at his side
(my
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
mother was at home babysitting for my young son, waiting for my return,
so
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
she could visit my father). All of a sudden, the medical staff was
pressuring *me* to sign the DNR order. To the best of my knowledge, even
if
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
I had wanted to sign it, I didn't have the authority. I always wondered
who
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
gave the hospital staff the authority to decide on their own that I had
the
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
authority to overturn my mother's decision? They tried very hard to
intimidate me into signing the DNR order. When, I still refused, they
slow-coded my father anyway [took their sweet time getting the crash
cart to
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
ensure that resuscitation efforts would fail]. The lesson to be learned
Everyone should designate a health care proxy and ensure that the proxy
will
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
act in accordance with his/her wishes. We often incorrectly think that
the
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
only purpose of a proxy is to give the hospital staff permission to pull
the
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
plug. On the contrary, the proxy could be the person who is doing
everything
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
in his/her power to fight the hospital staff to ensure that doesn't
happen.
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Cindy, you are correct, but in New Jersey, where I live, you need two
things: a health care proxy (allowing whomever to decide for you,
should you be incapacitated) AND a living will. The living will states
your wishes (to be resuscitated, not to be, to use or not to use heroic
measures, machinery, etc.). I was told that this is in case the proxy
encounters resistance from doctors who may think they know better than
your proxy. A living will ALONE can't do much (for one thing, the
doctors may not know its contents in the case of an emergency). Both
documents together give you more protection.
Depending on your state,. the rules will likely vary.
--------
Thanks, Jay. That's really important to know. I hope everyone takes it very
seriously.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
I think it's more complicated than money. I have made clear that if I
were in a vegetative state, I would not want it prolonged. It's not
about money, but then, I would not want vast resources wasted that could
be used for other people.

My parents have expressed the same wish.

If some of my parts could help someone, great.

That said, to be clear, there had better be a vegetative state, and no
chance at recovery. And, thanks for the idea of insisting we are
Orthodox Jews.


However, there is certainly no right to pressure people.

I would suspect that while some medical staff were influenced by cost, I
think many medical staff have seen what the horrendous end is like for
so many people, and want to spare the person from the indignity.
cindys
2006-07-24 11:43:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beach Runner
Post by Yisroel Markov
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
My father never designated a health care proxy. Despite the ongoing
pressure
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
from hospital staff, my mother refused to be intimidated into signing
the
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
DNR order. When my father began to crash, and I was the one at his side
(my
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
mother was at home babysitting for my young son, waiting for my return,
so
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
she could visit my father). All of a sudden, the medical staff was
pressuring *me* to sign the DNR order. To the best of my knowledge, even
if
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
I had wanted to sign it, I didn't have the authority. I always wondered
who
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
gave the hospital staff the authority to decide on their own that I had
the
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
authority to overturn my mother's decision? They tried very hard to
intimidate me into signing the DNR order. When, I still refused, they
slow-coded my father anyway [took their sweet time getting the crash
cart to
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
ensure that resuscitation efforts would fail]. The lesson to be learned
Everyone should designate a health care proxy and ensure that the proxy
will
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
act in accordance with his/her wishes. We often incorrectly think that
the
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
only purpose of a proxy is to give the hospital staff permission to pull
the
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
plug. On the contrary, the proxy could be the person who is doing
everything
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
in his/her power to fight the hospital staff to ensure that doesn't
happen.
Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by cindys
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Cindy, you are correct, but in New Jersey, where I live, you need two
things: a health care proxy (allowing whomever to decide for you,
should you be incapacitated) AND a living will. The living will states
your wishes (to be resuscitated, not to be, to use or not to use heroic
measures, machinery, etc.). I was told that this is in case the proxy
encounters resistance from doctors who may think they know better than
your proxy. A living will ALONE can't do much (for one thing, the
doctors may not know its contents in the case of an emergency). Both
documents together give you more protection.
Depending on your state,. the rules will likely vary.
--------
Thanks, Jay. That's really important to know. I hope everyone takes it very
seriously.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
I think it's more complicated than money.
For the hospital and the insurance companies, it IS about money.
Post by Beach Runner
I have made clear that if I
were in a vegetative state, I would not want it prolonged. It's not
about money
Maybe not for you, but for the insurance company, it is.
Post by Beach Runner
, but then, I would not want vast resources wasted that could
be used for other people.
We're not discussing the situation where someone *doesn't want* to be
resuscitated. For that, the staff is all too happy to comply. We are
discussing the situation where someone *wants* to be resuscitated and the
staff is doing everything in their power to pressure the family not to
resuscitate.
Post by Beach Runner
My parents have expressed the same wish.
If some of my parts could help someone, great.
That said, to be clear, there had better be a vegetative state, and no
chance at recovery. And, thanks for the idea of insisting we are
Orthodox Jews.
Nobody *insisted* anything about anyone being Orthodox Jews. The issues
being discussed could apply to anyone of any religion.
Post by Beach Runner
However, there is certainly no right to pressure people.
I would suspect that while some medical staff were influenced by cost, I
think many medical staff have seen what the horrendous end is like for
so many people, and want to spare the person from the indignity.
The problem is not "the indignity" or "the horrendous end." The problem is
that the staff is concerned that it *won't end* any time soon, and the
person may be in a vegetative state for weeks or months, thus potentially
costing the insurance company and the hospital hundreds of thousands, if not
millions of dollars.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Micha Berger
2006-07-24 12:05:41 UTC
Permalink
ObJewish: It makes sense to name a rabbinic authority in a living will.
The thing is, it's a document you're hoping won't be used for a very long
time. And therefore it's possible the rabbi won't be reachable by then
(including the possibility of /his/ death). Therefore, think of naming as
a backup an insitution that is (1) stable, and (2) capable of providing
an alternate whose ideals would be close to your own.

For example, in some O circles, you would consider having them call the
RCA Beth Din.

-mi
--
Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ
***@aishdas.org for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507
cindys
2006-07-24 12:47:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Micha Berger
ObJewish: It makes sense to name a rabbinic authority in a living will.
The thing is, it's a document you're hoping won't be used for a very long
time. And therefore it's possible the rabbi won't be reachable by then
(including the possibility of /his/ death). Therefore, think of naming as
a backup an insitution that is (1) stable, and (2) capable of providing
an alternate whose ideals would be close to your own.
For example, in some O circles, you would consider having them call the
RCA Beth Din.
----------
Thank you. I never thought of that. What I have done is told my sons,
verbally, that if they ever needed to make these kinds of decisions for me,
they should consult the rosh yeshiva and go with whatever he says. I think I
need to put that in writing.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Kara
2006-07-24 13:28:37 UTC
Permalink
I think staff are influenced by more than cost.

For example, many people do not realize that Hospice is not a single
entity and each can have their own guidelines. In recent years there
has been a combining of some Hospices with directors who belong to the
Hemlock Society (which advocates active euthanasia of the sick).

For example, Terri Schiavo's husband put her into a Hospice where the
director was a member of the Hemlock Society. She didnt even quality to
be admitted, but his attorney served on the board. On a side note, the
judge should have removed himself from the case since the husband's
attorney had contributed funds for his re election campaign.

If scheduling for a surgery I think it is perfectly acceptable to ask
if any of the surgeons and/or staff are members of Hemlock.
cindys
2006-07-24 15:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kara
I think staff are influenced by more than cost.
For example, many people do not realize that Hospice is not a single
entity and each can have their own guidelines. In recent years there
has been a combining of some Hospices with directors who belong to the
Hemlock Society (which advocates active euthanasia of the sick).
For example, Terri Schiavo's husband put her into a Hospice where the
director was a member of the Hemlock Society. She didnt even quality to
be admitted, but his attorney served on the board. On a side note, the
judge should have removed himself from the case since the husband's
attorney had contributed funds for his re election campaign.
If scheduling for a surgery I think it is perfectly acceptable to ask
if any of the surgeons and/or staff are members of Hemlock.
----------
Thank you for this information!
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Andy Katz
2006-07-24 16:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kara
I think staff are influenced by more than cost.
Indeed. I've wanted to stay out of this, by and large, but as perhaps
one of the only readers here who has actually done the mechanical
labor of caring for people suffering varying degrees of level of
consciousness impairment I think it's worth pointing out that money is
seldom an issue for those who work at the bedside. It becomes a matter
of empathy, of reacting to the very personal horror of seeing a human
being turned into so much tissue and bone, sans awareness. *Then*
watching him or her deteriorate: muscles contract, skin and eyes dry
out, hair thins, bed sores dig into the flesh, stopping only where
there's bone.

Sorrow and pity, if you will.

It's particularly horrifying to see that happen to someone who was
alert and aware when first encountered.

I'm strongly against legal euthenasia because it's too easily applied
coercively. Which is not the same as saying it should never happen.
Let it be like torture, done only where the need is so obviously
compelling that no jury will convict nor district attorney charge.
Othewise, do the time secure in the knowledge you did the right thing.

I've also had the experience of a relative who experienced a severe
brain injury that led to a vegetative state actually recover (well, at
least she was no stupider than before;-).

So I think it's very, very wrong to try and pressure people into
passive euthenasia. But some facilities are still feeling their way in
this area, and staff in some cases may only be trying to make people
aware of their options.

And, of course, some may be trying to reduce the economic bite long
term care takes--and this is yet another issue for relatives to
consider: it's all well and good to say that life is precious, or that
my relative would want to fight until the bitter end, but *who* is
going to provide that care? Dedicated RNs, or minimum wage nurses
aides who speak little English and work several jobs and who treat
your loved one like a sack of produce?

We in health care also experience the frequent phenomenon of relatives
who have essentially ignored or mistreated their loved one suddenly
realize this is it ... they try to make up for a lifetime of neglect
by playing the white knight, or they simply cannot accept the
inevitable, and any suggestion that they at least consider doing so is
tantamount to murder.

Please understand, I'm not saying that about anyone here. Scjm readers
seem well thought out on the subject. And, as a matter of fact, the
issue has become more personal than professional for me, because my
father is scheduled for surgery next month in Los Angeles. I'm already
booked to fly out there and be with him. He's having a cervical
laminectomy. *Not* a huge deal, but for a man of 84 venerable years,
not a small one, either. God forbid that any of the issues I've cited
should arise next month, but if they do, well, money will be the least
of considerations. Dignity and quality of life the first.

To boil things down to their essence, when you work in healthcare,
particularly in a bedside capacity you quickly see that being
bedridden is perhaps the greatest insult to the human body, and to the
soul if dignity matters at all, that it's possible to inflict.
Post by Kara
For example, many people do not realize that Hospice is not a single
entity and each can have their own guidelines. In recent years there
has been a combining of some Hospices with directors who belong to the
Hemlock Society (which advocates active euthanasia of the sick).
For example, Terri Schiavo's husband put her into a Hospice where the
director was a member of the Hemlock Society. She didnt even quality to
be admitted, but his attorney served on the board. On a side note, the
judge should have removed himself from the case since the husband's
attorney had contributed funds for his re election campaign.
Well, I realize it's off-topic, but Schiavo's husband was vindicated
by the autopsy results.

Andy Katz
Kara
2006-07-25 11:33:46 UTC
Permalink
So I think it's very, very wrong to try and pressure people into
Post by Andy Katz
passive euthenasia. But some facilities are still feeling their way in
this area, and staff in some cases may only be trying to make people
aware of their options.
______________
Well they can just feel their way with someone else...not me.
Post by Andy Katz
We in health care also experience the frequent phenomenon of relatives
who have essentially ignored or mistreated their loved one suddenly
realize this is it ... they try to make up for a lifetime of neglect
by playing the white knight, or they simply cannot accept the
inevitable, and any suggestion that they at least consider doing so is
tantamount to murder.
_____________
Trying to make up for neglect is not a bad thing. In fact, a recent
article came out saying that many people in hospice dont die because
for the first time their family pays attention to the person. To have a
change of heart (if it is authentic) is a good thing.
Post by Andy Katz
To boil things down to their essence, when you work in healthcare,
particularly in a bedside capacity you quickly see that being
bedridden is perhaps the greatest insult to the human body, and to the
soul if dignity matters at all, that it's possible to inflict.
_______________
Being bedridden was not a great insult to me. I had bed sores and the
experiance was truly horrible. But, having medical people want to kill
me was the bigger insult. I will never ever trust medical personel
again.

A few weeks ago I was in hospital and was almost given a fatal dose of
a drug I was allergic to (the nurse didnt check my name or my allergies
on my armband). Perhaps she made a mistake or perhaps she belongs to
the Hemlock Society and thought I needed my dignity back.
Post by Andy Katz
Well, I realize it's off-topic, but Schiavo's husband was vindicated
by the autopsy results.
____________
Whether or not you believe this, is not relevant to the fact that it is
deception for a staff member to not reveal that they belong to an
organization that endorses killing the sick. The Hemlock society
produces literature on how to kill people with a bag over their head.
No person who belongs to that organization should have a medical
license to care for the sick.
Andy Katz
2006-07-25 15:39:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Katz
So I think it's very, very wrong to try and pressure people into
Post by Andy Katz
passive euthenasia. But some facilities are still feeling their way in
this area, and staff in some cases may only be trying to make people
aware of their options.
______________
Well they can just feel their way with someone else...not me.
I'm sure you'll have no problem making your feelings known.
Post by Andy Katz
Post by Andy Katz
We in health care also experience the frequent phenomenon of relatives
who have essentially ignored or mistreated their loved one suddenly
realize this is it ... they try to make up for a lifetime of neglect
by playing the white knight, or they simply cannot accept the
inevitable, and any suggestion that they at least consider doing so is
tantamount to murder.
_____________
Trying to make up for neglect is not a bad thing. In fact, a recent
article came out saying that many people in hospice dont die because
for the first time their family pays attention to the person. To have a
change of heart (if it is authentic) is a good thing.
It depends on *how* they do so, Kara. I'm not just talking about
hospice care, here, but any long term setting. Nor am I trying to
advocate one way or another. It's just that most of us, thank
goodness, will only have one example from which to form our
impressions of the issue. Healthcare workers deal with many.
Post by Andy Katz
Post by Andy Katz
To boil things down to their essence, when you work in healthcare,
particularly in a bedside capacity you quickly see that being
bedridden is perhaps the greatest insult to the human body, and to the
soul if dignity matters at all, that it's possible to inflict.
_______________
Being bedridden was not a great insult to me. I had bed sores and the
experiance was truly horrible. But, having medical people want to kill
me was the bigger insult. I will never ever trust medical personel
again.
You were most fortunate. As I wrote, I've had the experience of a
relative recover from a vegetative state. But most of the instances
I'm referring there is no hope of recovery. Believe it or not, one can
tell them apart.
Post by Andy Katz
A few weeks ago I was in hospital and was almost given a fatal dose of
a drug I was allergic to (the nurse didnt check my name or my allergies
on my armband). Perhaps she made a mistake or perhaps she belongs to
the Hemlock Society and thought I needed my dignity back.
That was wrong of her. But why did your MD prescribe a drug to which
you are allergic? Nurses don't just administer drugs at random.

And, don't worry, if they wanted to do you in, you'd be done;-)
Post by Andy Katz
Post by Andy Katz
Well, I realize it's off-topic, but Schiavo's husband was vindicated
by the autopsy results.
____________
Whether or not you believe this, is not relevant to the fact that it is
deception for a staff member to not reveal that they belong to an
organization that endorses killing the sick. The Hemlock society
produces literature on how to kill people with a bag over their head.
No person who belongs to that organization should have a medical
license to care for the sick.
Suppose said staff member belongs to a right to life organization.

Is that also deception?

Andy Katz
Kara
2006-07-26 11:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Katz
That was wrong of her. But why did your MD prescribe a drug to which
you are allergic? Nurses don't just administer drugs at random.
_____________
He didnt. She most likely got me mixed up with another patient. When I
stopped her, she went over the chart and realized her mistake and came
back with a differant drug.
Post by Andy Katz
Suppose said staff member belongs to a right to life organization.
Is that also deception?
_____________
It can be. If the person belongs to an organization that promotes the
opposite of what the hospital's statement of care (or other
institution) is and what the person's license says...then yes.

There are right to life groups who false advertise in the yellow pages
under "women's clinic" to trick women. That is deception, also.
m***@mm.huji.ac.il
2006-07-27 06:28:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kara
Post by Andy Katz
We in health care also experience the frequent phenomenon of relatives
who have essentially ignored or mistreated their loved one suddenly
realize this is it ... they try to make up for a lifetime of neglect
by playing the white knight, or they simply cannot accept the
inevitable, and any suggestion that they at least consider doing so is
tantamount to murder.
_____________
Trying to make up for neglect is not a bad thing. In fact, a recent
article came out saying that many people in hospice dont die because
for the first time their family pays attention to the person. To have a
change of heart (if it is authentic) is a good thing.
Interesting point.
Post by Kara
Post by Andy Katz
To boil things down to their essence, when you work in healthcare,
particularly in a bedside capacity you quickly see that being
bedridden is perhaps the greatest insult to the human body, and to
the soul if dignity matters at all, that it's possible to inflict.
_______________
Being bedridden was not a great insult to me. I had bed sores and
the experiance was truly horrible. But, having medical people want
to kill me was the bigger insult.
Kara, as someone who "been there, done that", I really must take your
word over someone who is speaking from "observation" not "experience".

During the Shiavo affair, I remember readinga first person account of
being killed in a hospital bed by the nurses not giving water. The
writer only survived because after a few days she managed to make a
movement demonstrating she was _not_ "brain-dead".
Post by Kara
I will never ever trust medical personel again.
A few weeks ago I was in hospital and was almost given a fatal dose of
a drug I was allergic to (the nurse didnt check my name or my allergies
on my armband). Perhaps she made a mistake or perhaps she belongs to
the Hemlock Society and thought I needed my dignity back.
Such suspiscions are truly the stuff of _nightmares_.
Post by Kara
Post by Andy Katz
Well, I realize it's off-topic, but Schiavo's husband was vindicated
by the autopsy results.
____________
Whether or not you believe this, is not relevant to the fact that it
is deception for a staff member to not reveal that they belong to an
organization that endorses killing the sick. The Hemlock society
produces literature on how to kill people with a bag over their head.
No person who belongs to that organization should have a medical
license to care for the sick.
Absolutely. I'm surprised they don't _hide_ the fact that they want
to kill people.

Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
Don Levey
2006-07-27 13:50:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Post by Kara
Whether or not you believe this, is not relevant to the fact that it
is deception for a staff member to not reveal that they belong to an
organization that endorses killing the sick. The Hemlock society
produces literature on how to kill people with a bag over their head.
No person who belongs to that organization should have a medical
license to care for the sick.
Absolutely. I'm surprised they don't _hide_ the fact that they want
to kill people.
If they were ashamed of it, then why would they keep doing it?
--
Don Levey If knowledge is power,
Framingham, MA and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to ***@the-leveys.us
will be used to tune the blocking lists.
f***@verizon.net
2006-08-01 05:26:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Levey
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Post by Kara
Whether or not you believe this, is not relevant to the fact that it
is deception for a staff member to not reveal that they belong to an
organization that endorses killing the sick. The Hemlock society
produces literature on how to kill people with a bag over their head.
No person who belongs to that organization should have a medical
license to care for the sick.
Absolutely. I'm surprised they don't _hide_ the fact that they want
to kill people.
If they were ashamed of it, then why would they keep doing it?
For the same reasons terrorists are secretive?
(NO, I am NOT calling them terrorists!)
Because they know others don't like it is my guess

Susan, whose worst hospital screw-up so far was a nurse who
didn't speak English and took my baby away from the room
(and I had to go get it back) and who gave me Tylenol with
CODEINE for the episiotomy - and I was NURSING!

(The idiots who can't get the first kosher meal delivered EVER
don't really count)
cycjec
2006-07-25 18:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Kara: For example, Terri Schiavo's husband put her into a Hospice where the
director was a member of the Hemlock Society. She didnt even quality to
be admitted, but his attorney served on the board. On a side note, the
judge should have removed himself from the case since the husband's
attorney had contributed funds for his re election campaign.
not Kara: Well, I realize it's off-topic, but Schiavo's husband was
vindicated by the autopsy results.
I don't see how.

* very often a persons level of functioning is much better
than might be expected from post-mortem findings, these being
persons

* brain abnormalities should be expected when an person's
death was due to dehydration (and starvation) for 13 days

* even granting that the "PVS" diagnostic category has any
validity whatsoever, the ME himself stated "PVS is a clinical
diagnosis arrived at through physical examination of living
patients" i.e. not a matter of pathology

A physician's discussion:
http://eroscoloredglasses.blogspot.com/2005/06/terri-schiavos-autopsy-blind-spot.html

Not Dead Yet's discussion:
http://www.notdeadyet.org/docs/schiavoautopsyPR0605.html

* numerous physicians challenged the views expressed in the
trial courts findings (and the MSM), notably:

The Code Blue Blog $100K challenge
http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/codeblueblog/2005/03/index.html


Daniel Eisenberg, M.D. at Aish.com in 2003:

The key to analyzing any situation is to realize that good ethics
start with good facts. One must provide the posek (halachic decisor)
with an accurate, honest, and thorough assessment of the patient's
medical condition. Only then can a halachically valid and ethically
proper decision be made.
Kara
2006-07-26 04:40:22 UTC
Permalink
Actually, I have thought about joining the Not Dead Yet Group. They are
made up of former coma patients and patients who were diagnosed as PVS,
but recovered.
cycjec
2006-07-26 13:06:17 UTC
Permalink
[ Moderator's Comment: We have already lost all Jewish aspects to this
discussion. hw ]
Post by Andy Katz
Indeed. I've wanted to stay out of this, by and large, but as perhaps
one of the only readers here who has actually done the mechanical
labor of caring for people suffering varying degrees of level of
consciousness impairment I think it's worth pointing out that money is
seldom an issue for those who work at the bedside.
Indeed there have been several notable instances of
nurses serving as advocates for patients.

A notable success, Rus Cooper-Dowda

Around the end of my bed were a "school" of doctors in their white
coats, planning when to disconnect my ventilator and feeding tube. I
immediately started screaming, "I'm here!!" No one but me heard me.

They did notice my sudden agitation. They heavily sedated me. For a
time, everytime I woke up I would make as much noise and move as a
much as I could to show them I was "in there."....

But, the nursing staff began to believe I was really and truly with
them...

I secretly progressed to answering in sentence fragments.

However, by doctor's orders she was not allowed to document in my file
what she was doing and that I was giving meaningful responses.
http://www.ragged-edge-mag.com/extra/wokeup.html

Unsuccessfully:

Terri's medical condition was systematically distorted and
misrepresented. When I worked with her, she was alert and oriented.
Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence, saying such
things as "mommy," and "help me." "Help me" was, in fact, one of her
most frequent utterances. I heard her say it hundreds of times. Terri
would try to say the word "pain" when she was in discomfort, but it
came out more like "pay." She didn't say the "n" sound very well"

"When I came into her room and said "Hi, Terri", she would always
recognize my voice and her name, and would turn her head all the way
toward me, saying "Haaaiiiii" sort of, as she did. I recognized this
as a "hi", which is very close to what it sounded like"

http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/03/more_on_terri_s.php
Iyer affidavit

Repercussions:
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/jun/06063013.html
Iyer License action
m***@mm.huji.ac.il
2006-07-25 05:43:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kara
I think staff are influenced by more than cost.
For example, many people do not realize that Hospice is not a single
entity and each can have their own guidelines. In recent years there
has been a combining of some Hospices with directors who belong to the
Hemlock Society (which advocates active euthanasia of the sick).
This is very frightening. So some doctors are indeed "agents" of the
Angel of Death.
Post by Kara
For example, Terri Schiavo's husband put her into a Hospice where the
director was a member of the Hemlock Society. She didnt even quality to
be admitted, but his attorney served on the board. On a side note, the
judge should have removed himself from the case since the husband's
attorney had contributed funds for his re election campaign.
If scheduling for a surgery I think it is perfectly acceptable to ask
if any of the surgeons and/or staff are members of Hemlock.
And if the answeris "yes"?

Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
Kara
2006-07-24 05:13:39 UTC
Permalink
Very good advise. Also people need realize there is a differance
between a Living Will and a Will To Live.

I have a Will To Live which states that I absolutly want hydration and
nutrition. I do not view that as extraordinary measures.

Normally the standard Living Will states that it is ok to starve you to
death.
m***@mm.huji.ac.il
2006-07-24 10:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kara
Very good advise. Also people need realize there is a differance
between a Living Will and a Will To Live.
I have a Will To Live which states that I absolutly want hydration and
nutrition. I do not view that as extraordinary measures.
Normally the standard Living Will states that it is ok to starve you to
death.
I remember commenting during the Shiavo case. How could "food and
water" get turned into "heroic measures"? I still din't understand it.

Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
Kara
2006-07-24 13:19:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
I remember commenting during the Shiavo case. How could "food and
water" get turned into "heroic measures"? I still din't understand it.
______________
It isnt-- at least not for Orthodox Christians. I would assume that
would also be the case for Orthodox Jews (perhaps even for Conservative
Jews).
m***@mm.huji.ac.il
2006-07-25 05:41:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kara
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
I remember commenting during the Shiavo case. How could "food and
water" get turned into "heroic measures"? I still din't understand it.
______________
It isnt-- at least not for Orthodox Christians. I would assume that
would also be the case for Orthodox Jews (perhaps even for
Conservative Jews).
I don't se where it becomes a "religious" question. If a parent would
not give a baby food and water would he not be guilty of at least
manslaughter?

Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
Kara
2006-07-25 18:54:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
I don't se where it becomes a "religious" question. If a parent would
not give a baby food and water would he not be guilty of at least
manslaughter?
_______________
It is also not a "human" issue. If you did not feed/water your pet,
you would go to jail. Saying that the animal is brain damaged will not
make your case. And, in fact, probably will make your situation worse
legally (besides making the human look like they are in need of mental
health care).
Herman Rubin
2006-07-25 19:32:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Post by Kara
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
I remember commenting during the Shiavo case. How could "food and
water" get turned into "heroic measures"? I still din't understand it.
______________
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Post by Kara
It isnt-- at least not for Orthodox Christians. I would assume that
would also be the case for Orthodox Jews (perhaps even for
Conservative Jews).
I don't se where it becomes a "religious" question. If a parent would
not give a baby food and water would he not be guilty of at least
manslaughter?
Would it be so it the child was already brain dead?
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
***@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
k***@yahoo.com
2006-07-25 20:26:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kara
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Post by Kara
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
I remember commenting during the Shiavo case. How could "food and
water" get turned into "heroic measures"? I still din't understand it.
______________
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Post by Kara
It isnt-- at least not for Orthodox Christians. I would assume that
would also be the case for Orthodox Jews (perhaps even for
Conservative Jews).
I don't se where it becomes a "religious" question. If a parent would
not give a baby food and water would he not be guilty of at least
manslaughter?
Would it be so it the child was already brain dead?
--
One question -- both religious and legal -- is when does life end? Are
we obligatd to keep the machines going ad infinitum simply because we
*can* even though the brain has long since stopped functioning, and
everything that made the body into a *person* has long since gone?
Another question is whether we, as human beings, have the right to
determine when we have had *enough,* the right to die with what some of
us consider *dignity*

People here are conflating two issues -- the right to withhold
food/water/medical treatment, and a DNR order. *DNR* means *Do Not
Resucitate* -- if the patient dies, allow him or her to do so; don't
prolong his/her death and suffering. People are attributing all sorts
of evil motives to doctors and nurses who promote DNR orders for
terminally ill patients. Here's another motive, based upon my own
observations, and my own conversations with medical professionals --
they CARE. They see the person suffering. They understand that there
is no hope that the person will have a meaningful future. And they've
seen the suffering of the hulks that used to be people who are kept
alive by machines. DNR doesn't mean withhold food or medications or
proper treatment; it means allowing the person to die when it is
his/her time.

Does Jewish law permit DNR orders? I don't know. From my limited
knowledge, I'd be shocked if it did not -- shocked if we are obligated
to usurp Gd's decision as to when we die. But even if that were the
case, we have no right whatsoever attempting to impose that religious
consideration upon others -- unless, of course, you don't mind others
forcing YOU to do things that THEIR religion requires. (Taliban,
anyone?)

As to Ms. Schiavo, while it was a completely different issue, I greatly
admire her husband. With absolutely *no* basis, her parents portrayed
him as a heartless and cruel man. It would have been so easy for him
to simply walk away, and turn her care over to them. Instead, he
fought them in order to allow her to finally rest in peace.

Karen Elizabeth
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
2006-07-26 02:23:51 UTC
Permalink
<***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
: Herman Rubin wrote:
: >
: > >>> I remember commenting during the Shiavo case. How could "food and
: > >>> water" get turned into "heroic measures"? I still din't understand it.
: > ______________
: > >> It isnt-- at least not for Orthodox Christians. I would assume that
: > >> would also be the case for Orthodox Jews (perhaps even for
: > >> Conservative Jews).
: >
: > >I don't se where it becomes a "religious" question. If a parent would
: > >not give a baby food and water would he not be guilty of at least
: > >manslaughter?
: >
: > Would it be so it the child was already brain dead?
: > --
: One question -- both religious and legal -- is when does life end? Are
: we obligatd to keep the machines going ad infinitum simply because we
: *can* even though the brain has long since stopped functioning, and
: everything that made the body into a *person* has long since gone?
: Another question is whether we, as human beings, have the right to
: determine when we have had *enough,* the right to die with what some of
: us consider *dignity*
:
: People here are conflating two issues -- the right to withhold
: food/water/medical treatment, and a DNR order. *DNR* means *Do Not
: Resucitate* -- if the patient dies, allow him or her to do so; don't
: prolong his/her death and suffering. People are attributing all sorts
: of evil motives to doctors and nurses who promote DNR orders for
: terminally ill patients. Here's another motive, based upon my own
: observations, and my own conversations with medical professionals --
: they CARE. They see the person suffering. They understand that there
: is no hope that the person will have a meaningful future. And they've
: seen the suffering of the hulks that used to be people who are kept
: alive by machines. DNR doesn't mean withhold food or medications or
: proper treatment; it means allowing the person to die when it is
: his/her time.
:
: Does Jewish law permit DNR orders? I don't know. From my limited
: knowledge, I'd be shocked if it did not -- shocked if we are obligated
: to usurp Gd's decision as to when we die. But even if that were the
: case, we have no right whatsoever attempting to impose that religious
: consideration upon others -- unless, of course, you don't mind others
: forcing YOU to do things that THEIR religion requires. (Taliban,
: anyone?)
:
: As to Ms. Schiavo, while it was a completely different issue, I greatly
: admire her husband. With absolutely *no* basis, her parents portrayed
: him as a heartless and cruel man. It would have been so easy for him
: to simply walk away, and turn her care over to them. Instead, he
: fought them in order to allow her to finally rest in peace.
:
: Karen Elizabeth
:

Ask the question this way: what would happen if nature took its course? What if
there was no technology (to include medicine)? If you do nothing, what happens?
cindys
2006-07-26 02:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@yahoo.com
People here are conflating two issues -- the right to withhold
food/water/medical treatment, and a DNR order.
The issues are not conflated. The thread has merely followed a natural
progression into subthreads. The originally thread was about medical
personnel who try to pressure families into "pulling the plug" on loved
ones. "Pulling the plug" is a violation of Jewish law, and the individual in
the original post managed to get the medical personnel off her back by
falsely claiming that her father was Orthodox. On that note, I revisited the
story of the medical personnel who were trying to pressure me and my mother
to sign a DNR order for my father. A DNR order is not against Jewish law,
but the commonality with the first situation is that the medical personnel
were pressuring us relentlessly (and with a variety of scare tactics) to
sign the order, which we clearly did not want to sign.In the end, when my
father crashed, they slow-coded him (the nurse even admitted it), so they
got their DNR without our signatures and against our wishes. The
withholding food/water is a different subthread entirely but again, it is
still on the subject of having medical personnel who believe that
withholding food and water is right and proper in certain situations and
will try to pressure the family into going along with that.
Post by k***@yahoo.com
*DNR* means *Do Not
Resucitate* -- if the patient dies, allow him or her to do so; don't
prolong his/her death and suffering. People are attributing all sorts
of evil motives to doctors and nurses who promote DNR orders for
terminally ill patients.
The only person who has spoken about a DNR order here is me, and I was
talking only about my personal situation when my father was dying. The
*evil* was not the DNR order per se but the fact that the medical personnel
were pressuring us relentlessly to sign it even though we had made it clear,
repeatedly, that we didn't want to.
Post by k***@yahoo.com
Here's another motive, based upon my own
observations, and my own conversations with medical professionals --
they CARE. They see the person suffering. They understand that there
is no hope that the person will have a meaningful future. And they've
seen the suffering of the hulks that used to be people who are kept
alive by machines. DNR doesn't mean withhold food or medications or
proper treatment; it means allowing the person to die when it is
his/her time.
Does Jewish law permit DNR orders? I don't know.
As far as I know, Jewish law permits a DNR order, but *permits* does not
mean *obligated,* and that is the point.
Post by k***@yahoo.com
From my limited
knowledge, I'd be shocked if it did not -- shocked if we are obligated
to usurp Gd's decision as to when we die. But even if that were the
case, we have no right whatsoever attempting to impose that religious
consideration upon others -- unless, of course, you don't mind others
forcing YOU to do things that THEIR religion requires. (Taliban,
anyone?)
In your above statement, you have used a lot of pronouns, and I'm not sure
who these pronouns refer to. Who are the ones who are imposing *their*
religious considerations on *others*. *Who* is forcing *whom* to do what
*their* religion requires? As far as I'm concerned, we were talking about
family members who presumably share the same religious values as the
patient, and the medical personnel who disrespect those values because they
*know better*.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Post by k***@yahoo.com
As to Ms. Schiavo, while it was a completely different issue, I greatly
admire her husband. With absolutely *no* basis, her parents portrayed
him as a heartless and cruel man. It would have been so easy for him
to simply walk away, and turn her care over to them. Instead, he
fought them in order to allow her to finally rest in peace.
Karen Elizabeth
James Kahn
2006-07-26 03:29:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by cindys
Post by k***@yahoo.com
People here are conflating two issues -- the right to withhold
food/water/medical treatment, and a DNR order.
The issues are not conflated. The thread has merely followed a natural
progression into subthreads. The originally thread was about medical
personnel who try to pressure families into "pulling the plug" on loved
ones.
[remainder of excellent post snipped]

Yes, this is precisely the problem with moving the boundaries. Once
"Living Wills" and DNRs become the norm, or at least common, there is
inevitably pressure put on those who are not comfortable with such
arrangements to conform, or else be considered "selfish" or
"irrational." I would go so far as to say that if (G-d forbid)
assisted suicide were to become widely legal, it would not be long
before terminally ill patients or others deemed to have a low
"quality of life" would get similarly pressured. Social norms
can shift remarkably quickly (fortunately in positive as well as
negative directions).
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn
cycjec
2006-07-26 05:24:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Kahn
Post by k***@yahoo.com
People here are conflating two issues -- the right to withhold
food/water/medical treatment, and a DNR order.
The conflation arises because the issues are conflated in
the typically mis-names "Living Will" and because of the
recategorizing of food/water as "medical" interventions.
Post by James Kahn
Yes, this is precisely the problem with moving the boundaries. Once
"Living Wills" and DNRs become the norm, or at least common, there is
inevitably pressure put on those who are not comfortable with such
arrangements to conform, or else be considered "selfish" or
"irrational." I would go so far as to say that if (G-d forbid)
assisted suicide were to become widely legal, it would not be long
before terminally ill patients or others deemed to have a low
"quality of life" would get similarly pressured. Social norms
can shift remarkably quickly (fortunately in positive as well as
negative directions).
It's gone beyond pressure to dictation disregarding
any expressed wishes of the patient, as proven in the
Texas Futile Care cases (Andrea Clarke, etc.)

A unilateral decision by hospital staff:

When What Seems Broken is Perfect: The Mother of a Disabled Child
Tells her Story
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1669505/posts


"... we thought we had a choice of life for Annie but
the reality is that we did not. The medical records, which we
instinctively felt compelled to obtain and have had reviewed, reveal
no signs of pneumonia. An effective "Do not resuscitate" was ordered
without our knowledge or consent. The final computerized medication
report from the intensive care of an excellent hospital is
inexplicably missing."
Kara
2006-07-26 15:57:41 UTC
Permalink
I would go so far as to say that if (G-d forbid)
Post by James Kahn
assisted suicide were to become widely legal, it would not be long
before terminally ill patients or others deemed to have a low
"quality of life" would get similarly pressured.
__________
There is a Swiss "clinic" (Dignitas--it is a "do it yourself") in the
UK that was recently told to move from their office building. The
reason is amazing.

The other offices in the building (specifically their personel) were
starting to suffer from depression and anxiety because they would see
the "clients" come in the front door, but never leave.

The human psyche is not geared to adjust to such things readily.
Evententually...hopefully, science will be able to tell us more. But
whether we will be able to know the exact beginnning and the end of
life may never come. G-d may have reasons to keep this knowledge from
humanity.
Kara
2006-07-26 04:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@yahoo.com
--
One question -- both religious and legal -- is when does life end?
____________
It is complicated. When is dead...dead? The truth is that science at
this time cannot answer this question easily.



Are
Post by k***@yahoo.com
we obligatd to keep the machines going ad infinitum simply because we
*can* even though the brain has long since stopped functioning, and
everything that made the body into a *person* has long since gone?
_________________
No. The problem is that sometimes it is difficult to tell if someone is
gone.

I am the only survivor of a fire. The others did not make it.

One relative died right away, but another one was in the this state
that you talk about. And this is where religion took over. I am an
Orthodox Christian. Within the Greek church there is a prayer (a very
old one) that is said in order for the soul to leave the body and to
let the person "go".

My parents asked that this prayer be said by our Priest. The family was
told that once this prayer/ annointing was done the person would die
soon. There would be no recovery. And that is exactly what happened.

Perhaps there is something similiar in Judiasm??
Post by k***@yahoo.com
People here are conflating two issues -- the right to withhold
food/water/medical treatment, and a DNR order. *DNR* means *Do Not
Resucitate* -- if the patient dies, allow him or her to do so; don't
prolong his/her death and suffering.
______________
As with anything the DNR is not always clear. There was recently a case
of a person who was on a breathing machine at home and had a DNR. There
was a brief power outage at the home. The nurses did not help the
person due to the DNR. But the DNR was never meant to be used for a
power outage. Even the nurses were unsure of what they were supposed to
do.

As time goes by will will (hopefully) have less gray area.
Andy Katz
2006-07-26 06:06:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@yahoo.com
One question -- both religious and legal -- is when does life end? Are
we obligatd to keep the machines going ad infinitum simply because we
*can* even though the brain has long since stopped functioning, and
everything that made the body into a *person* has long since gone?
Another question is whether we, as human beings, have the right to
determine when we have had *enough,* the right to die with what some of
us consider *dignity*
Right. And once you'd performed the incredibly detailed labor of
caring for someone in a coma, you begin to see just how vile an
existence it is.
Post by k***@yahoo.com
People here are conflating two issues -- the right to withhold
food/water/medical treatment, and a DNR order. *DNR* means *Do Not
Resucitate* -- if the patient dies, allow him or her to do so; don't
prolong his/her death and suffering. People are attributing all sorts
of evil motives to doctors and nurses who promote DNR orders for
terminally ill patients. Here's another motive, based upon my own
observations, and my own conversations with medical professionals --
they CARE. They see the person suffering. They understand that there
is no hope that the person will have a meaningful future. And they've
seen the suffering of the hulks that used to be people who are kept
alive by machines. DNR doesn't mean withhold food or medications or
proper treatment; it means allowing the person to die when it is
his/her time.
Does Jewish law permit DNR orders? I don't know. From my limited
knowledge, I'd be shocked if it did not -- shocked if we are obligated
to usurp Gd's decision as to when we die. But even if that were the
case, we have no right whatsoever attempting to impose that religious
consideration upon others -- unless, of course, you don't mind others
forcing YOU to do things that THEIR religion requires. (Taliban,
anyone?)
As to Ms. Schiavo, while it was a completely different issue, I greatly
admire her husband. With absolutely *no* basis, her parents portrayed
him as a heartless and cruel man. It would have been so easy for him
to simply walk away, and turn her care over to them. Instead, he
fought them in order to allow her to finally rest in peace.
Well said, Karen.

Let's also remember that in healthcare there are at least as many
right-to-lifers as there are "Hemlock Society" types, and almost never
do the individuals performing the care and interacting most closely
with the family have any inkling of the particular patient's fiduciary
issues.

Andy Katz
____________________________________________
"There's more to being a Jew than jewelry!"

Charlotte York, "Sex & The City"

The Simpsons



Bastard Nation
http://www.bastards.org
Micha Berger
2006-07-25 20:39:38 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:32:33 +0000 (UTC), Herman Rubin <***@stat.purdue.edu> wrote:
:>I don't se where it becomes a "religious" question. If a parent would
:>not give a baby food and water would he not be guilty of at least
:>manslaughter?

: Would it be so it the child was already brain dead?

If life = brain death, and assuming we agree on which part of the brain
must be dead to qualify. There are halachic decisors who define death
as cessation of brain stem activity. That is the part of the brain that
allows a person to breath and have a heartbeat on their own, and is thus
possibly what the classical definition was getting at. That's a much
lower level of funcation than Terry Schiavo was at, as her autonomic
systems were running fine.

-mi
--
Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
***@aishdas.org I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rabindranath Tagore
Micha Berger
2006-07-25 20:49:36 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:32:33 +0000 (UTC), Herman Rubin <***@stat.purdue.edu> wrote:
:>I don't se where it becomes a "religious" question. If a parent would
:>not give a baby food and water would he not be guilty of at least
:>manslaughter?

: Would it be so it the child was already brain dead?

IIRC, the problem we ran into last time was that you didn't acknowledge
the gap between a doctor's ability to determine the body's medical
condition and mapping that condition to an axiological state (a state
along an axis of values) such as dead vs alive.

Deciding which set of medical states map to "alive" and which to "dead",
particularly when one is in that gray area, is a religious question, not
a scientific one.

-mi
--
Micha Berger With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
***@aishdas.org G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507 to include himself. - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Kara
2006-07-26 11:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman Rubin
Would it be so it the child was already brain dead?
___________
A person who is officially brain dead is not denied nutrition to end
their life (that I know of).

If someone is brain dead, they are on machines which are then turned
off. That is very differant than starving someone to death who does
not require a machine to exist.

Many people were under the mistaken impression that Schiavo was on
"life support". She was not. She only needed nutrition. She was not on
any breathing machines at all. None.

It is a very complicated issue. There are people who have ALS who are
in a wheelchair and require machines to live. Some would argue that
their lives are not worth living. Is Stephen Hawking's life worth
living?
Herman Rubin
2006-07-26 16:09:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kara
Post by Herman Rubin
Would it be so it the child was already brain dead?
___________
Post by Kara
A person who is officially brain dead is not denied nutrition to end
their life (that I know of).
If someone is brain dead, they are on machines which are then turned
off. That is very differant than starving someone to death who does
not require a machine to exist.
Many people were under the mistaken impression that Schiavo was on
"life support". She was not. She only needed nutrition. She was not on
any breathing machines at all. None.
It is a very complicated issue. There are people who have ALS who are
in a wheelchair and require machines to live. Some would argue that
their lives are not worth living. Is Stephen Hawking's life worth
living?
I believe the question should be the quality of the mind.

I know this can be a difficult question; even in the recent
case of a semi-comatose man whose brain restructured itself,
there was continuous activity in the part of the brain which
we consider providing conscious mental activity.

At least in Altzheimer's disease, the brain activity is there,
and hopefully we will find a way to remove the limitations.
Those of my friends who have relatives who died with this
disease were badly affected by it.

I am not going to go into my relatives; I am the survivor.
But these decisions have to be made, and we imperfect
humans have to be the ones to make them.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
***@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Micha Berger
2006-07-26 18:35:46 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:09:00 +0000 (UTC), Herman Rubin <***@stat.purdue.edu> wrote:
: I believe the question should be the quality of the mind.

Yes, that's your religious stance. But the question is inherently religious:
What aspect of being human do we value?

I think that's why separation of church and state is failing on the issue.

-mi
Herman Rubin
2006-07-27 00:22:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Micha Berger
: I believe the question should be the quality of the mind.
What aspect of being human do we value?
I think that's why separation of church and state is failing on the issue.
I see no way to get any agreement. Which religion makes the
decision? Which sect? Does the person's opinion count?

I am not advocating the euthanasia of Alzheimer's patients,
but if one of them stated in a living will that if his or her
intelligence dropped below a certain point it should occur,
I would have to accept it. It is the "thinking" part of the
mind which is the person.

However, I do not think the doctors or the state should be in
on the decision. Doctors should provide UNBIASED information
to the extent possible, and the state should only intervene if
those individuals with the authority given by the patient to
make the decision violate their trust.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
***@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Micha Berger
2006-07-27 03:22:18 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 00:22:06 +0000 (UTC), Herman Rubin <***@stat.purdue.edu> wrote:
:>Yes, that's your religious stance. But the question is inherently religious:
:>What aspect of being human do we value?
...
: I see no way to get any agreement. Which religion makes the
: decision? Which sect? Does the person's opinion count?

I agree, it seems unresolvable.

: I am not advocating the euthanasia of Alzheimer's patients,
: but if one of them stated in a living will that if his or her
: intelligence dropped below a certain point it should occur,
: I would have to accept it. It is the "thinking" part of the
: mind which is the person.

And here you propose a resolution -- you say that you yourself would
follow your own religious stance.

The stance happens to grate on me. It would imply that someone who is
intellectually handicapped (mentally retarded) is less human. And yet
my son Shuby, who has Downs, has a pure faith and freely expresses
his attachments to other people that comes much harder to the rest of
us -- things I presonally value as being more central to humanity than
thought.

-mi
--
Micha Berger Zion will be redeemed through justice,
***@aishdas.org and her returnees will come in righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507
m***@mm.huji.ac.il
2006-07-27 07:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Micha Berger
:>Yes, that's your religious stance. But the question is
:>inherently religious: What aspect of being human do we value?
...
: I see no way to get any agreement. Which religion makes the
: decision? Which sect? Does the person's opinion count?
I agree, it seems unresolvable.
: I am not advocating the euthanasia of Alzheimer's patients,
: but if one of them stated in a living will that if his or her
: intelligence dropped below a certain point it should occur,
: I would have to accept it. It is the "thinking" part of the
: mind which is the person.
And here you propose a resolution -- you say that you yourself
would follow your own religious stance.
The stance happens to grate on me. It would imply that someone who is
intellectually handicapped (mentally retarded) is less human. And yet
my son Shuby, who has Downs, has a pure faith and freely expresses
his attachments to other people that comes much harder to the rest of
us -- things I presonally value as being more central to humanity than
thought.
Very interesting thoughts. What is a "human"?
A "thinker" or a "feeler"?

Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
Micha Berger
2006-08-07 10:52:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Very interesting thoughts. What is a "human"?
A "thinker" or a "feeler"?
What had got the discussion to that point was my objection to Herman's
position that:
: I am not advocating the euthanasia of Alzheimer's patients,
: but if one of them stated in a living will that if his or her
: intelligence dropped below a certain point it should occur,
: I would have to accept it. It is the "thinking" part of the
: mind which is the person.

My objection is on the grounds that it implies that people of lesser
intelligence are less human. As the father of a 7 yr old with Downs,
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Shuby ... has a pure faith and freely expresses
his attachments to other people that comes much harder to the rest of
us -- things I personally value as being more central to humanity than
thought.
But I am also the father of a teenager who has a number of psychiatric
issues (or one issue which the field can only describe with a litany of
labels), including a form of autism. I therefore am similarly incapable
of a position that would make Yoni any less human because he is less
capable of emotional attachment or awareness.

As the Talmud says, "All is in the control (yedei: lit. hands) of [the
One in] heaven, except for awe/fear of [the One in] heaven."

Given the complete toolkit, both thinking and feeling go into the process
of deciding whether to live in awe of G-d and following the calling for
which He made us, or to simply be another mammal on the face of the earth.

IMHO, being human is to be what you make of yourself.

Some souls are given a special challenge, of having a calling that
requires traveling their life's journey without all the tools most of
us are blessed with. They may cover less spiritual "distance", they may
travel in a slightly different direction, than most of us are supposed
to. But the effort of decision, the amount they invested to determine
who they are, is the same. After all, compared to an Infinite G-d, all
of us have finite, and thus limited, abilities to be who we want to be.

Now that I had time to think about it, there is another difference between
my position and Herman's. I see life as being a metaphysical statement --
is the body in a condition in which the soul wouldn't leave it. However,
the soul could be fully capable and yet attached to a body which could
never again regain consciousness. The fact that the brain has Alzheimer's,
Downs or autism r"l doesn't mean that the soul is any less functioning.

-mi
--
Micha Berger For a mitzvah is a lamp,
***@aishdas.org And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507
b***@vms.huji.ac.il
2006-08-07 16:05:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Micha Berger
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Very interesting thoughts. What is a "human"?
A "thinker" or a "feeler"?
What had got the discussion to that point was my objection to Herman's
: I am not advocating the euthanasia of Alzheimer's patients,
: but if one of them stated in a living will that if his or her
: intelligence dropped below a certain point it should occur,
: I would have to accept it. It is the "thinking" part of the
: mind which is the person.
My objection is on the grounds that it implies that people of lesser
intelligence are less human. As the father of a 7 yr old with Downs,
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Shuby ... has a pure faith and freely expresses
his attachments to other people that comes much harder to the rest of
us -- things I personally value as being more central to humanity than
thought.
But I am also the father of a teenager who has a number of psychiatric
issues (or one issue which the field can only describe with a litany of
labels), including a form of autism. I therefore am similarly incapable
of a position that would make Yoni any less human because he is less
capable of emotional attachment or awareness.
Two ways of treating Asperger's syndrome: 1) vasopressin I via nasal spray
or 2) head out water immersion in a very hot Jacuzzi for 20 minutes
(which works by a rise in atrial natriuretic hormone and a drastic decrease
in the vasopressin II receptor (reciprocal to vasopressin I).

Why suffer ?
Post by Micha Berger
As the Talmud says, "All is in the control (yedei: lit. hands) of [the
One in] heaven, except for awe/fear of [the One in] heaven."
Given the complete toolkit, both thinking and feeling go into the process
of deciding whether to live in awe of G-d and following the calling for
which He made us, or to simply be another mammal on the face of the earth.
IMHO, being human is to be what you make of yourself.
Some souls are given a special challenge, of having a calling that
requires traveling their life's journey without all the tools most of
us are blessed with. They may cover less spiritual "distance", they may
travel in a slightly different direction, than most of us are supposed
to. But the effort of decision, the amount they invested to determine
who they are, is the same. After all, compared to an Infinite G-d, all
of us have finite, and thus limited, abilities to be who we want to be.
Now that I had time to think about it, there is another difference between
my position and Herman's. I see life as being a metaphysical statement --
is the body in a condition in which the soul wouldn't leave it. However,
the soul could be fully capable and yet attached to a body which could
never again regain consciousness. The fact that the brain has Alzheimer's,
Downs or autism r"l doesn't mean that the soul is any less functioning.
Josh
Post by Micha Berger
-mi
--
Micha Berger For a mitzvah is a lamp,
http://www.aishdas.org - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507
m***@mm.huji.ac.il
2006-08-08 12:45:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@vms.huji.ac.il
Post by Micha Berger
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Very interesting thoughts. What is a "human"?
A "thinker" or a "feeler"?
What had got the discussion to that point was my objection to Herman's
: I am not advocating the euthanasia of Alzheimer's patients,
: but if one of them stated in a living will that if his or her
: intelligence dropped below a certain point it should occur,
: I would have to accept it. It is the "thinking" part of the
: mind which is the person.
My objection is on the grounds that it implies that people of lesser
intelligence are less human. As the father of a 7 yr old with Downs,
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Shuby ... has a pure faith and freely expresses
his attachments to other people that comes much harder to the rest of
us -- things I personally value as being more central to humanity than
thought.
But I am also the father of a teenager who has a number of psychiatric
issues (or one issue which the field can only describe with a litany of
labels), including a form of autism. I therefore am similarly incapable
of a position that would make Yoni any less human because he is less
capable of emotional attachment or awareness.
Two ways of treating Asperger's syndrome: 1) vasopressin I via nasal spray
or 2) head out water immersion in a very hot Jacuzzi for 20 minutes
(which works by a rise in atrial natriuretic hormone and a drastic decrease
in the vasopressin II receptor (reciprocal to vasopressin I).
Hey, you told me that immersion is good to prevent heart attacks.
I've been going to the very hot mikve since then and feeling very
virtuous. BTW is that 20 minutes critical?
Post by b***@vms.huji.ac.il
Why suffer ?
Cause he's Jewish? :-)

Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
b***@vms.huji.ac.il
2006-08-09 02:03:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Post by b***@vms.huji.ac.il
Post by Micha Berger
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Very interesting thoughts. What is a "human"?
A "thinker" or a "feeler"?
What had got the discussion to that point was my objection to Herman's
: I am not advocating the euthanasia of Alzheimer's patients,
: but if one of them stated in a living will that if his or her
: intelligence dropped below a certain point it should occur,
: I would have to accept it. It is the "thinking" part of the
: mind which is the person.
My objection is on the grounds that it implies that people of lesser
intelligence are less human. As the father of a 7 yr old with Downs,
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Shuby ... has a pure faith and freely expresses
his attachments to other people that comes much harder to the rest of
us -- things I personally value as being more central to humanity than
thought.
But I am also the father of a teenager who has a number of psychiatric
issues (or one issue which the field can only describe with a litany of
labels), including a form of autism. I therefore am similarly incapable
of a position that would make Yoni any less human because he is less
capable of emotional attachment or awareness.
Two ways of treating Asperger's syndrome: 1) vasopressin I via nasal spray
or 2) head out water immersion in a very hot Jacuzzi for 20 minutes
(which works by a rise in atrial natriuretic hormone and a drastic decrease
in the vasopressin II receptor (reciprocal to vasopressin I).
Hey, you told me that immersion is good to prevent heart attacks.
Heart disease in general. Head out water immersion by elevating the heart
hormone ANF in turn not only inhibits vasopressin it also immediately
and simultaneously inhibits 3 inflammatory cytokines: iNOS, TNFalpha
and NFKappaB [which have a nonlinear interaction and only by inhibiting all
3 simultaneously will there be any long-lasting effect].
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
I've been going to the very hot mikve since then and feeling very
virtuous. BTW is that 20 minutes critical?
You remind me of the punchline in the following:

This little old Jewish guy faints. Someone brings a cup of water, someone
brings a pillow, another brings a blanket. Sadie Bernstein says, "Give
him an enema!!". When asked why she replies, "IT CAN'T HURT!!" :-)

So all I can say in reply to your question is that IT CAN'T HURT to be
in the hot Jacuzzi up to your neck for 20 minutes.
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Post by b***@vms.huji.ac.il
Why suffer ?
Cause he's Jewish? :-)
Josh
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
m***@mm.huji.ac.il
2006-08-10 13:24:38 UTC
Permalink
snip
Post by b***@vms.huji.ac.il
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Post by b***@vms.huji.ac.il
Two ways of treating Asperger's syndrome: 1) vasopressin I via nasal spray
or 2) head out water immersion in a very hot Jacuzzi for 20 minutes
(which works by a rise in atrial natriuretic hormone and a drastic decrease
in the vasopressin II receptor (reciprocal to vasopressin I).
Hey, you told me that immersion is good to prevent heart attacks.
Heart disease in general. Head out water immersion by elevating the heart
hormone ANF in turn not only inhibits vasopressin it also immediately
and simultaneously inhibits 3 inflammatory cytokines: iNOS, TNFalpha
and NFKappaB [which have a nonlinear interaction and only by inhibiting
all 3 simultaneously will there be any long-lasting effect].
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
I've been going to the very hot mikve since then and feeling very
virtuous. BTW is that 20 minutes critical?
This little old Jewish guy faints. Someone brings a cup of water, someone
brings a pillow, another brings a blanket. Sadie Bernstein says, "Give
him an enema!!". When asked why she replies, "IT CAN'T HURT!!" :-)
So all I can say in reply to your question is that IT CAN'T HURT to be
in the hot Jacuzzi up to your neck for 20 minutes.
But does it do any of the good things you described above if _only_
for a minute or even less. And please don't answer "IT CAN'T HURT!!"

Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
m***@mm.huji.ac.il
2006-08-08 12:44:26 UTC
Permalink
Where did that "R'" come from?
Post by Micha Berger
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Very interesting thoughts. What is a "human"?
A "thinker" or a "feeler"?
And as a result, I got another great post from Micha. Thanks.

Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University

Nothing snipped.
Post by Micha Berger
What had got the discussion to that point was my objection to Herman's
: I am not advocating the euthanasia of Alzheimer's patients,
: but if one of them stated in a living will that if his or her
: intelligence dropped below a certain point it should occur,
: I would have to accept it. It is the "thinking" part of the
: mind which is the person.
My objection is on the grounds that it implies that people of lesser
intelligence are less human. As the father of a 7 yr old with Downs,
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Shuby ... has a pure faith and freely expresses
his attachments to other people that comes much harder to the rest of
us -- things I personally value as being more central to humanity than
thought.
But I am also the father of a teenager who has a number of psychiatric
issues (or one issue which the field can only describe with a litany of
labels), including a form of autism. I therefore am similarly incapable
of a position that would make Yoni any less human because he is less
capable of emotional attachment or awareness.
As the Talmud says, "All is in the control (yedei: lit. hands) of [the
One in] heaven, except for awe/fear of [the One in] heaven."
Given the complete toolkit, both thinking and feeling go into the process
of deciding whether to live in awe of G-d and following the calling for
which He made us, or to simply be another mammal on the face of the earth.
IMHO, being human is to be what you make of yourself.
Some souls are given a special challenge, of having a calling that
requires traveling their life's journey without all the tools most of
us are blessed with. They may cover less spiritual "distance", they may
travel in a slightly different direction, than most of us are supposed
to. But the effort of decision, the amount they invested to determine
who they are, is the same. After all, compared to an Infinite G-d, all
of us have finite, and thus limited, abilities to be who we want to be.
Now that I had time to think about it, there is another difference between
my position and Herman's. I see life as being a metaphysical statement --
is the body in a condition in which the soul wouldn't leave it. However,
the soul could be fully capable and yet attached to a body which could
never again regain consciousness. The fact that the brain has Alzheimer's,
Downs or autism r"l doesn't mean that the soul is any less functioning.
-mi
--
Micha Berger For a mitzvah is a lamp,
http://www.aishdas.org - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Herman Rubin
2006-07-27 19:04:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Micha Berger
:>What aspect of being human do we value?
...
: I see no way to get any agreement. Which religion makes the
: decision? Which sect? Does the person's opinion count?
I agree, it seems unresolvable.
: I am not advocating the euthanasia of Alzheimer's patients,
: but if one of them stated in a living will that if his or her
: intelligence dropped below a certain point it should occur,
: I would have to accept it. It is the "thinking" part of the
: mind which is the person.
And here you propose a resolution -- you say that you yourself would
follow your own religious stance.
The stance happens to grate on me. It would imply that someone who is
intellectually handicapped (mentally retarded) is less human. And yet
my son Shuby, who has Downs, has a pure faith and freely expresses
his attachments to other people that comes much harder to the rest of
us -- things I presonally value as being more central to humanity than
thought.
Read my proposal more carefully.

Also, one thing we have to realize is that for society to
continue to progress, or even to maintain its state, we
need more mentally astute people. Even if we can make
things idiot-proof, and Einstein has stated that nature
produces better idiots faster than we can do this, at some
not too distant time we will need more bright people to (if
they are allowed to) keep things going and improve them.
Medieval Judaism was one of the few religions which thought
that bright people were desirable parents.

The "allowed to" part is crucial. There is a tendency to
put impediments into the way of introducing what those in
power do not like or cannot understand.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
***@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
f***@verizon.net
2006-08-01 05:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Micha Berger
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:09:00 +0000 (UTC), Herman Rubin
: I believe the question should be the quality of the mind.
Yes, that's your religious stance. But the question is inherently
religious: What aspect of being human do we value?
I think that's why separation of church and state is failing on the issue.
Failing to come up with a concensus, or failing to come up with a law,
or that the law is based on religion & therefore failing to separate church
& state...?
Either your remark was vague, or I am....

Susan
Micha Berger
2006-08-06 03:13:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@verizon.net
Post by Micha Berger
I think that's why separation of church and state is failing on the issue.
[of the definition of "death".]
Post by f***@verizon.net
Failing to come up with a concensus, or failing to come up with a law,
or that the law is based on religion & therefore failing to separate church
& state...?
Failing to come up with a definition that does not draw from a religious
tradition; and thus dailing to separate church and state. This in turn
will cause a failure to reach a consensus, but that wasn't my point.

Gut Voch!
-mi
--
Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ
***@aishdas.org for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
2006-07-25 21:08:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Post by Kara
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
I remember commenting during the Shiavo case. How could "food and
water" get turned into "heroic measures"? I still din't understand it.
______________
It isnt-- at least not for Orthodox Christians. I would assume that
would also be the case for Orthodox Jews (perhaps even for
Conservative Jews).
I don't se where it becomes a "religious" question. If a parent would
not give a baby food and water would he not be guilty of at least
manslaughter?
This whole topic is complex because technology has moved faster than we
humans can figure out what is the wise (ie ethics/morality are a subset
of wisdom) way to use these technologies.

Look at this 16 year old who does not want to use current medical
technology. The courts have ordered that his parents have to share
custody with the State Protective Agency.

Abraham Cherrix refused a second round of chemotherapy when he learned
early this year that his Hodgkin's disease, a cancer of the lymph
nodes, was active again. He chose instead to go on a sugar-free,
organic diet and take herbal supplements under the supervision of a
clinic in Mexico. A social worker then asked a judge to require the
teen to continue conventional treatment.

(read the whole story here, this kid has been on Sean Hannity a couple
of times and comes across as well educated and informed)
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SOU_SICK_TEEN_VAOL-?SITE=WDUN&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

The real question is why we do not change the laws to much the age of
majority (accountability) to 16 instead of 18? It would solve many of
our crime problems, much of the juvenile abortion mess and many other
things. We have too long a childhood in this nation in my opinion (up
to 30 years).

Also the problems over stem cell research. Embryonic Stem Cells (ESC)
are legal to research on in the US. However it is only that the US
government does not want to waste money on such research. So far ESC's
have not produced any results, only cancers (which are cells in a
juvenile state like ESC). Adult Stem Cells have produced results and
cures. And are funded by the government.

How does Judaism deal with these emerging technologies? How does the
Torah and the Talmud give us guidence? What is the wise course of
action? Do we allow money to be thrown away on meaningless research
just because the political winds? Do we force a young man into medical
treatment that may not cure him? What happens to our doctors, what of
their beliefs?
cycjec
2006-07-26 13:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
This whole topic is complex because technology has moved faster than we
humans can figure out what is the wise (ie ethics/morality are a subset
of wisdom) way to use these technologies.
Sometimes new technology poses a challenge.

Supplemental alimentation, by various means, is
not at all new, having been attempted since the
days of ancient Egypt. Nor was it ever considered
a medical treatment, let alone optional until the
later 1980s or perhaps as late as 1990 or 1993.
Post by Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
Look at this 16 year old who does not want to use current medical
technology. The courts have ordered that his parents have to share
custody with the State Protective Agency.
The same question might arise for a person at any
age, given the rule that one has no dominion over
one's body, and that one is obligated to care for
it according to the best medical opinion available.

I have no knowledge regarding this particular case.
Post by Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
How does Judaism deal with these emerging technologies? How does the
Torah and the Talmud give us guidence?
There's some material in print, and rather less
on the WWW, but not enough for this layperson,
except on a few fundamental issues.
cycjec
2006-07-25 18:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Moshe: I remember commenting during the Shiavo case. How could "food and
water" get turned into "heroic measures"? I still don't understand it.
Kara: It isn't-- at least not for Orthodox Christians. I would assume that
would also be the case for Orthodox Jews (perhaps even for Conservative
Jews).
In halacha (Jewish Law) certain treatments, such as oxygen,
nutrition, and hydration are obligatory for all* patients,
regardless of the severity of their medical condition, or the
mode of delivery, provided the intervention be efficacious*
and not otherwise harmful.

"To remove the feeding tube from a patient whose only impairment is
cognitive is simply murder." Daniel Eisenberg, M.D. at
Aish.com in 2003.

The Terri Schiavo Case: Related Ethical Dilemmas
http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/The_Terri_Schiavo_Case_Related_Ethical_Dilemmas.asp

Rabbi Breitowitz: The "Right" to Die: A Halachic Approach
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/right.html

*all patients: read the cited articles for further discussion

*efficacious: my substitution for "futile" since that now
is becoming a term camouflaging arbitrary refusal to treat.
Dr. Eisenberg again:

"In secular ethics discussions, medical futility encompasses several
issues only loosely related to one another. Futility of treatment is
often confused with "futility" of life."
Kara
2006-07-24 13:16:16 UTC
Permalink
Oh, and people should also have copies made and distribute the copies
of their Living Will/ Will To Live and Proxy to all family members,
their Rabbi, and their physician.
cycjec
2006-07-24 13:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by cindys
My father never designated a health care proxy. Despite the ongoing pressure
from hospital staff, my mother refused to be intimidated into signing the
DNR order. When my father began to crash, and I was the one at his side
... All of a sudden, the medical staff was pressuring *me* to sign the DNR
order. ... They tried very hard to intimidate me into signing the DNR
order.
Everyone should designate a health care proxy and ensure that the proxy will
act in accordance with his/her wishes. We often incorrectly think that the
only purpose of a proxy is to give the hospital staff permission to pull the
plug. On the contrary, the proxy could be the person who is doing everything
in his/her power to fight the hospital staff to ensure that doesn't happen.
Two more lessons:

1. In addition to making provision for oneself, one should
refuse to sign anything for one without proper legal
and halachic supervision. Once that DNR is signed, be
it with or without authority, it's assumed to be legit.

The Jewish Observer (Agudath Israel) years ago had
an article about an unauthorized DNR: the next of kin
(daughter IIRC) was present when staff said "oh but
he has a DNR) and shouted " he does *not* " The
patient survived to say farewell to various others.

I've personally heard a nurse remark (concerning
someone unrelated to myself) " there's a DNR in the
chart, but I'm not sure who signed it, it wasn't
the wife" (who was the next-of-kin)


2. "A hospital is like a war: go in with as many allies
as you can, and get out as soon as you can" quoting
Robert S. Mendelsohn, M.D> in his 1970s book Confessions
of a Medical Heretic. (Standard caveats implied)
Post by cindys
slow-coded my father anyway [took their sweet time getting
the crash cart to ensure that resuscitation efforts would fail].
Very distressing.
cycjec
2006-07-24 00:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
How much of this is pressure is there out there?
Quite a bit, and there have been reports from all
over the country.

It's not universal: in one case where I have
personal knowledge, there was no pressure,
that was a few years ago.
Kara
2006-07-24 05:13:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
How much of this is pressure is there out there? I have not seen as much of it
here in the Midwest. When the Terri Schivo case was going on, there was an
article in USA Today on how widely varied the laws where.
_____________
The great concern that I have with the Terri Schiavo case is that there
was nothing written down. And the only people supposidly told of what
she wanted were relatives of the husband. In addition, she had spoken
to her brother regarding getting a divorce.

When I did my will to live (a bit differant than a living will) I had
to get two witnesses to sign my paperwork. These witnesses could not be
related to me or to each other. Neither could benefit financially from
my death (a huge issue in the Schiavo case).

There were people who said that I would not live, and if I did, my life
would not be worth living. But you see, they are not G-d. And I think
that I have a great deal to contribute and if it's all the same to
them...I would rather not be euthanized thank you very much.
Beach Runner
2006-07-25 11:35:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kara
Post by Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
How much of this is pressure is there out there? I have not seen as much of it
here in the Midwest. When the Terri Schivo case was going on, there was an
article in USA Today on how widely varied the laws where.
_____________
The great concern that I have with the Terri Schiavo case is that there
was nothing written down. And the only people supposidly told of what
she wanted were relatives of the husband. In addition, she had spoken
to her brother regarding getting a divorce.
The greater concern I have is that during that period many poor people
that could have been treated were not because they did not have money
or insurance. They didn't make the news.
Post by Kara
When I did my will to live (a bit differant than a living will) I had
to get two witnesses to sign my paperwork. These witnesses could not be
related to me or to each other. Neither could benefit financially from
my death (a huge issue in the Schiavo case).
There were people who said that I would not live, and if I did, my life
would not be worth living. But you see, they are not G-d. And I think
that I have a great deal to contribute and if it's all the same to
them...I would rather not be euthanized thank you very much.
t***@gmail.com
2006-07-23 23:44:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yisroel Markov
Why did the doctors stop asking me to pull the plug?
Everyone should have a Durable Power of Attorney for Health, which is a
document that gives health care providers instructions as to what they
should and should not do in the event that you are not able to speak
for yourself. You can name one or more people to make decisions on your
behalf, and a Jewish DPA-H will usually name a rabbi to consult with on
matters of Jewish law.

Talk to a lawyer or to your rabbi for direction on where to get such a
document. Costs are from $0 to (around) $300.
Joseph Hertzlinger
2006-07-24 06:39:18 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 17:42:09 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
Post by Yisroel Markov
Why did the doctors stop asking me to pull the plug?
BY PAMELA R. WINNICK
Friday, July 21, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT
We Jews enjoy a more basic type of faith, a direct relationship to
God that requires no salvation, no penitence, no supplication.
No penitence? What goes on during Yom Kippur?
--
http://hertzlinger.blogspot.com
cycjec
2006-07-24 09:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Hertzlinger
On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 17:42:09 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
quoting article, not Yisroel Markov>
We Jews enjoy a more basic type of faith, a direct relationship to
God that requires no salvation, no penitence, no supplication.
No penitence? What goes on during Yom Kippur?
The person who wrote that concedes that he/she
has little or no knowledge of what Judaism (the
Torah) involves.
Micha Berger
2006-07-24 12:08:53 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 06:39:18 +0000 (UTC), Joseph Hertzlinger <***@nine.reticulatedcom.com> wrote:
:> Why did the doctors stop asking me to pull the plug?
:> BY PAMELA R. WINNICK
:> Friday, July 21, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT
...
:> We Jews enjoy a more basic type of faith, a direct relationship to
:> God that requires no salvation, no penitence, no supplication.

: No penitence? What goes on during Yom Kippur?

Do we fast (et al) to punish ourselves for our sins? Similarly, Judaism
doesn't require self-flaggelation or other "mortifications of the flesh"
as part of the teshuvah process.

So I don't see the problem in the statement as it originally appeared. The
implications drawn are false, but the sentence itself is correct, no?

-mi
--
Micha Berger You will never "find" time for anything.
***@aishdas.org If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org - Charles Buxton
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Jonathan J. Baker
2006-07-26 18:49:22 UTC
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In <> Joseph Hertzlinger
Post by Joseph Hertzlinger
On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 17:42:09 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
Post by Yisroel Markov
Why did the doctors stop asking me to pull the plug?
BY PAMELA R. WINNICK
Friday, July 21, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT
We Jews enjoy a more basic type of faith, a direct relationship to
God that requires no salvation, no penitence, no supplication.
No penitence? What goes on during Yom Kippur?
Yeah, that one and even more:
: I wanted to go back to ICU, find Dr. Death, drag her to my father's
: room and say: "This is the life you wanted to end." But if I'm really
: to be a person of faith, I'll have to tackle forgiveness.

Yeah, forgiveness. It's a good thing, but there's no real obligation
to grant it until the other guy asks. Forgiveness as a gift (grace)
is a Xtian thing, in imitatio dei. Repentance is a Jewish thing, to
merit forgiveness.

Sure, we have Tefilla Zakkah (which is really recent, it's by the Chayei
Adam, from less than 200 years ago), and mussar ideas, which are also
mostly post-kabbalistic, about forgiving others even if they don't ask for
it, so that God will forgive us without asking, but psychologically, it's
hard to make such forgiveness real.
--
Jonathan Baker | It's almost time ta muze
***@panix.com | about the Destruction.
Blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com Web page http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/
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