Discussion:
Alaska Airlines prayer scare
(too old to reply)
JJ
2011-03-15 23:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Quote:

Alaska Airlines has apologized for a weekend incident in which three
Orthodox Jewish businessmen triggered security concerns by conducting
a prayer ritual on board a flight to Los Angeles.

The men began praying out loud in Hebrew shortly after takeoff on
Flight 241 from Mexico City. Flight attendants alerted the flight
deck, which then called the tower and alerted law enforcement. When
the plane arrived at Los Angeles International Airport, it was met by
the FBI, Customs and Border Protection and airport police.

End of quote.

Full story:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/airline-apologizes-for-plane-prayer-scare/?hpt=T2

Jay
cindys
2011-03-16 02:18:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by JJ
Alaska Airlines has apologized for a weekend incident in which three
Orthodox Jewish businessmen triggered security concerns by conducting
a prayer ritual on board a flight to Los Angeles.
The men began praying out loud in Hebrew shortly after takeoff on
Flight 241 from Mexico City. Flight attendants alerted the flight
deck, which then called the tower and alerted law enforcement. When
the plane arrived at Los Angeles International Airport, it was met by
the FBI, Customs and Border Protection and airport police.
End of quote.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/airline-apologizes-for-plane...
Jay
-----
Don't you feel like this is deja vu? One or more Jewish men lay
tefillin on an airplane and start davening (praying). The flight
attendants don't know what's going on. They start questioning the men
who don't respond to their questions because they're not supposed to
interrupt their prayers. The passengers get nervous. Air traffic
control (or whomever) is notified that there is a problem on the
airplane (maybe terrorists). When the plane lands, the Jews are
detained by security personnel and/or the police. After the Jews
explain about the tefillin and that they were praying and/or some
rabbis or other people intervene, the Jews are released from custody.
The ADL issues a statement condemning the airline for not providing
cultural sensitivity training for their personnel. The airline
apologizes profusely and promises to implement more cultural
sensitivity training in the future so that this will never happen
again, and then a year later, the scenario repeats itself with
different Jews on a different airline.

Of course, the entire scenario could have probably been avoided if the
Jews had simply explained to the flight attendants what they were
doing, which according to the weblinked article, they did not. Even if
they didn't want to interrupt their prayers, they could have provided
an explanation before or after. But for some reason, they didn't want
to or didn't feel that they had to. I don't understand that at all.
Well, I guess I'm just blaming the victim again.

IIRC, the last time this happened, the airplane made an emergency
landing, and the Jewish man was actually arrested.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
JJ
2011-03-16 02:31:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by cindys
Post by JJ
Alaska Airlines has apologized for a weekend incident in which three
Orthodox Jewish businessmen triggered security concerns by conducting
a prayer ritual on board a flight to Los Angeles.
The men began praying out loud in Hebrew shortly after takeoff on
Flight 241 from Mexico City. Flight attendants alerted the flight
deck, which then called the tower and alerted law enforcement. When
the plane arrived at Los Angeles International Airport, it was met by
the FBI, Customs and Border Protection and airport police.
End of quote.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/airline-apologizes-for-plane...
Jay
-----
Don't you feel like this is deja vu? One or more Jewish men lay
tefillin on an airplane and start davening (praying). The flight
attendants don't know what's going on. They start questioning the men
who don't respond to their questions because they're not supposed to
interrupt their prayers. The passengers get nervous. Air traffic
control (or whomever) is notified that there is a problem on the
airplane (maybe terrorists). When the plane lands, the Jews are
detained by security personnel and/or the police. After the Jews
explain about the tefillin and that they were praying and/or some
rabbis or other people intervene, the Jews are released from custody.
The ADL issues a statement condemning the airline for not providing
cultural sensitivity training for their personnel. The airline
apologizes profusely and promises to implement more cultural
sensitivity training in the future so that this will never happen
again, and then a year later, the scenario repeats itself with
different Jews on a different airline.
Of course, the entire scenario could have probably been avoided if the
Jews had simply explained to the flight attendants what they were
doing, which according to the weblinked article, they did not. Even if
they didn't want to interrupt their prayers, they could have provided
an explanation before or after. But for some reason, they didn't want
to or didn't feel that they had to. I don't understand that at all.
Neither do I. Obviously by the time they had finished praying, they
could talk, and obviouly (duh!) the plane had not blown up so there
was no apparent danger from the little black boxes with the leather
straps.
Post by cindys
Well, I guess I'm just blaming the victim again.
Really? I don't think you are. Also, you think the Jews were the
victims? I think the rest of the passengers were. Probably scared out
of their wits. The common sense thing to do would be to advise the
flight attendant that they were Jewish and that now was prayer time,
and to show the attendant, ahead of time, that these are little
leather boxes with no fuses attached. Maybe even find someone on the
ground, pre boarding, who would explain to a flight attendant that
this was a harmless prayer.

When some Moslem spoke in Arabic on a flight (before takeoff) , it has
been known to happen that some passentgers got panicky and the pilot,
as a result, refused to take off until Moslems were removed from
plane. I think that in this day and age, a bit of courtesy on part of
Jewish passengers would go a long way towards calming the situation if
they took some minor common sense precautions (such as talking to the
attendant) before the brouhaha starts.

Obviously such precautions are not necessary on an El Al flight
leaving Israel; but maybe in Mexico, it should be taken.

Jay
cindys
2011-03-16 02:43:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by JJ
Post by cindys
Post by JJ
Alaska Airlines has apologized for a weekend incident in which three
Orthodox Jewish businessmen triggered security concerns by conducting
a prayer ritual on board a flight to Los Angeles.
The men began praying out loud in Hebrew shortly after takeoff on
Flight 241 from Mexico City. Flight attendants alerted the flight
deck, which then called the tower and alerted law enforcement. When
the plane arrived at Los Angeles International Airport, it was met by
the FBI, Customs and Border Protection and airport police.
End of quote.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/airline-apologizes-for-plane...
Jay
-----
Don't you feel like this is deja vu? One or more Jewish men lay
tefillin on an airplane and start davening (praying). The flight
attendants don't know what's going on. They start questioning the men
who don't respond to their questions because they're not supposed to
interrupt their prayers. The passengers get nervous. Air traffic
control (or whomever) is notified that there is a problem on the
airplane (maybe terrorists). When the plane lands, the Jews are
detained by security personnel and/or the police. After the Jews
explain about the tefillin and that they were praying and/or some
rabbis or other people intervene, the Jews are released from custody.
The ADL issues a statement condemning the airline for not providing
cultural sensitivity training for their personnel. The airline
apologizes profusely and promises to implement more cultural
sensitivity training in the future so that this will never happen
again, and then a year later, the scenario repeats itself with
different Jews on a different airline.
Of course, the entire scenario could have probably been avoided if the
Jews had simply explained to the flight attendants what they were
doing, which according to the weblinked article, they did not. Even if
they didn't want to interrupt their prayers, they could have provided
an explanation before or after. But for some reason, they didn't want
to or didn't feel that they had to. I don't understand that at all.
Neither do I. Obviously by the time they had finished praying, they
could talk, and obviouly (duh!) the plane had not blown up so there
was no apparent danger from the little black boxes with the leather
straps.
Post by cindys
Well, I guess I'm just blaming the victim again.
Really? I don't think you are.
Once again, SDNWOTN.
Post by JJ
Also, you think the Jews were the
victims? I think the rest of the passengers were. Probably scared out
of their wits. The common sense thing to do would be to advise the
flight attendant that they were Jewish and that now was prayer time,
and to show the attendant, ahead of time, that these are little
leather boxes with no fuses attached. Maybe even find someone on the
ground, pre boarding, who would explain to a flight attendant that
this was a harmless prayer.
Absolutely.
Post by JJ
When some Moslem spoke in Arabic on a flight (before takeoff) , it has
been known to happen that some passengers got panicky and the pilot,
as a result, refused to take off until Moslems were removed from
plane. I think that in this day and age, a bit of courtesy on part of
Jewish passengers would go a long way towards calming the situation if
they took some minor common sense precautions (such as talking to the
attendant) before the brouhaha starts.
Agreed.
Post by JJ
Obviously such precautions are not necessary on an El Al flight
leaving Israel; but maybe in Mexico, it should be taken.
Or on any airline that is not El Al. When we went to Rome, my son did
not take his tefillin. He was afraid that when we went through
security, his tefillin would be spotted in his carry-on, we would be
detained, airport security would pry them open and ruin them and/or we
would miss our flight. And he didn't stand up and start davening in
the aisle of the airplane either.
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
JJ
2011-03-16 13:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by cindys
Post by JJ
Post by cindys
Post by JJ
Alaska Airlines has apologized for a weekend incident in which three
Orthodox Jewish businessmen triggered security concerns by conducting
a prayer ritual on board a flight to Los Angeles.
The men began praying out loud in Hebrew shortly after takeoff on
Flight 241 from Mexico City. Flight attendants alerted the flight
deck, which then called the tower and alerted law enforcement. When
the plane arrived at Los Angeles International Airport, it was met by
the FBI, Customs and Border Protection and airport police.
End of quote.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/airline-apologizes-for-plane...
Jay
-----
Don't you feel like this is deja vu? One or more Jewish men lay
tefillin on an airplane and start davening (praying). The flight
attendants don't know what's going on. They start questioning the men
who don't respond to their questions because they're not supposed to
interrupt their prayers. The passengers get nervous. Air traffic
control (or whomever) is notified that there is a problem on the
airplane (maybe terrorists). When the plane lands, the Jews are
detained by security personnel and/or the police. After the Jews
explain about the tefillin and that they were praying and/or some
rabbis or other people intervene, the Jews are released from custody.
The ADL issues a statement condemning the airline for not providing
cultural sensitivity training for their personnel. The airline
apologizes profusely and promises to implement more cultural
sensitivity training in the future so that this will never happen
again, and then a year later, the scenario repeats itself with
different Jews on a different airline.
Of course, the entire scenario could have probably been avoided if the
Jews had simply explained to the flight attendants what they were
doing, which according to the weblinked article, they did not. Even if
they didn't want to interrupt their prayers, they could have provided
an explanation before or after. But for some reason, they didn't want
to or didn't feel that they had to. I don't understand that at all.
Neither do I. Obviously by the time they had finished praying, they
could talk, and obviouly (duh!) the plane had not blown up so there
was no apparent danger from the little black boxes with the leather
straps.
Post by cindys
Well, I guess I'm just blaming the victim again.
Really? I don't think you are.
Once again, SDNWOTN.
Buzzing sound. BZZZZT. Wrong! I was not being sarcastic. I truly
meant that I do NOT think you were blaming the victim.
(unless you meant to say that YOU were sarcastic) ??

Jay
cindys
2011-03-16 15:24:54 UTC
Permalink
snip
Post by cindys
Post by JJ
Post by cindys
Well, I guess I'm just blaming the victim again.
Really? I don't think you are.
Once again, SDNWOTN.
Buzzing sound.  BZZZZT. Wrong! I was not being sarcastic. I truly
meant that I do NOT think you were blaming the victim.
(unless you meant to say that YOU were sarcastic) ??
----
Yes. *I* was being sarcastic when I said I was blaming the victim.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
sheldonlg
2011-03-16 15:25:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by JJ
Post by cindys
Post by JJ
Post by cindys
Post by JJ
Alaska Airlines has apologized for a weekend incident in which three
Orthodox Jewish businessmen triggered security concerns by conducting
a prayer ritual on board a flight to Los Angeles.
The men began praying out loud in Hebrew shortly after takeoff on
Flight 241 from Mexico City. Flight attendants alerted the flight
deck, which then called the tower and alerted law enforcement. When
the plane arrived at Los Angeles International Airport, it was met by
the FBI, Customs and Border Protection and airport police.
End of quote.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/airline-apologizes-for-plane...
Jay
-----
Don't you feel like this is deja vu? One or more Jewish men lay
tefillin on an airplane and start davening (praying). The flight
attendants don't know what's going on. They start questioning the men
who don't respond to their questions because they're not supposed to
interrupt their prayers. The passengers get nervous. Air traffic
control (or whomever) is notified that there is a problem on the
airplane (maybe terrorists). When the plane lands, the Jews are
detained by security personnel and/or the police. After the Jews
explain about the tefillin and that they were praying and/or some
rabbis or other people intervene, the Jews are released from custody.
The ADL issues a statement condemning the airline for not providing
cultural sensitivity training for their personnel. The airline
apologizes profusely and promises to implement more cultural
sensitivity training in the future so that this will never happen
again, and then a year later, the scenario repeats itself with
different Jews on a different airline.
Of course, the entire scenario could have probably been avoided if the
Jews had simply explained to the flight attendants what they were
doing, which according to the weblinked article, they did not. Even if
they didn't want to interrupt their prayers, they could have provided
an explanation before or after. But for some reason, they didn't want
to or didn't feel that they had to. I don't understand that at all.
Neither do I. Obviously by the time they had finished praying, they
could talk, and obviouly (duh!) the plane had not blown up so there
was no apparent danger from the little black boxes with the leather
straps.
Post by cindys
Well, I guess I'm just blaming the victim again.
Really? I don't think you are.
Once again, SDNWOTN.
Buzzing sound. BZZZZT. Wrong! I was not being sarcastic. I truly
meant that I do NOT think you were blaming the victim.
(unless you meant to say that YOU were sarcastic) ??
That was the way I read it, that she was talking about herself.
--
Shelly
m***@mm.huji.ac.il
2011-03-17 08:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by JJ
Post by cindys
Post by JJ
Post by cindys
Well, I guess I'm just blaming the victim again.
Really? I don't think you are.
Once again, SDNWOTN.
Buzzing sound. BZZZZT. Wrong! I was not being sarcastic. I
truly meant that I do NOT think you were blaming the victim.
(unless you meant to say that YOU were sarcastic) ??
When someone says SDNWOTN it _usually_ means that _I_ made a
mistake by using sarcasem and, sure enough, it was not understood.
Which is what you said at the end.
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
cindys
2011-03-16 16:31:43 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 15, 7:31 pm, JJ <***@gmail.com> wrote:

snip
You think the Jews were the
victims? I think the rest of the passengers were. Probably scared out
of their wits. The common sense thing to do would be to advise the
flight attendant that they were Jewish and that now was prayer time,
and to show the attendant, ahead of time, that these are little
leather boxes with no fuses attached. Maybe even find someone on the
ground, pre boarding, who would explain to a flight attendant that
this was a harmless prayer.
----

Incidents such as these really promote good interfaith relationships,
don't they? I have no doubt that some of the people on that airplane
had never even seen a Jew before, and I'm sure the flight attendants,
the pilot, and all the other airport personnel just love Jews now,
especially the ones who were made to issue the profuse apology. Can
you just imagine the kinds of things that were being said about Jews
in the meeting boardroom when the Alaska Airlines management was
drafting their apology?

In my personal experience, I have found that non-Jews are often very
interested in Jewish rituals and are eager to learn more about Jews.
Whenever I've had non-Jews as sabbath guests, they ask a lot of
questions and are fascinated about the kiddush and hamotzi etc. And it
catches me by surprise every time. The only reason I invite non-Jews
on Friday night at all is because of my work schedule (Friday night is
really the only time I have to entertain). I would actually prefer to
invite them on Sunday night, but my work schedule hasn't permitted it.
So, I just explain to them in advance about kiddush, and I reassure
them it only takes a few minutes, and they don't have to participate,
and they won't have to be sitting through religious rites and
ceremonies for the duration of dinner. And most of the time, they
think it's wonderful and are eager to discuss Jewish ritual and ask a
lot of questions.

So, while the Jewish men on Alaska Airlines certainly weren't
obligated to turn their davening into a public relations opportunity,
at the very least, they could have taken a couple of minutes to
explain what they were doing to the flight attendants and thereby have
avoided creating a scandal and this entire ugly scenario.
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
JJ
2011-03-16 16:44:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by cindys
snip
 You think the Jews were the
victims? I think the rest of the passengers were. Probably scared out
of their wits. The common sense thing to do would be to advise the
flight attendant that they were Jewish and that now was prayer time,
and to show the attendant, ahead of time, that these are little
leather boxes with no fuses attached. Maybe even find someone on the
ground, pre boarding, who would explain to a flight attendant that
this was a harmless prayer.
----
Incidents such as these really promote good interfaith relationships,
don't they? I have no doubt that some of the people on that airplane
had never even seen a Jew before, and I'm sure the flight attendants,
the pilot, and all the other airport personnel just love Jews now,
especially the ones who were made to issue the profuse apology. Can
you just imagine the kinds of things that were being said about Jews
in the meeting boardroom when the Alaska Airlines management was
drafting their apology?
You are absolutely correct. I am sure only compliments were dispensed
and that we Jews were being loved and admired at that board
meeting... :-(

Jay
m***@mm.huji.ac.il
2011-03-17 08:31:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by JJ
Post by cindys
----
Incidents such as these really promote good interfaith relationships,
don't they? I have no doubt that some of the people on that airplane
had never even seen a Jew before, and I'm sure the flight attendants,
the pilot, and all the other airport personnel just love Jews now,
especially the ones who were made to issue the profuse apology. Can
you just imagine the kinds of things that were being said about Jews
in the meeting boardroom when the Alaska Airlines management was
drafting their apology?
You are absolutely correct. I am sure only compliments were
dispensed and that we Jews were being loved and admired at that
board meeting... :-(
Aha, I see Jay, that you are learning about Cindy's sarcasm...
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
sheldonlg
2011-03-16 12:37:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by cindys
Post by JJ
Alaska Airlines has apologized for a weekend incident in which three
Orthodox Jewish businessmen triggered security concerns by conducting
a prayer ritual on board a flight to Los Angeles.
The men began praying out loud in Hebrew shortly after takeoff on
Flight 241 from Mexico City. Flight attendants alerted the flight
deck, which then called the tower and alerted law enforcement. When
the plane arrived at Los Angeles International Airport, it was met by
the FBI, Customs and Border Protection and airport police.
End of quote.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/airline-apologizes-for-plane...
Jay
-----
Don't you feel like this is deja vu? One or more Jewish men lay
tefillin on an airplane and start davening (praying). The flight
attendants don't know what's going on. They start questioning the men
who don't respond to their questions because they're not supposed to
interrupt their prayers. The passengers get nervous. Air traffic
control (or whomever) is notified that there is a problem on the
airplane (maybe terrorists). When the plane lands, the Jews are
detained by security personnel and/or the police. After the Jews
explain about the tefillin and that they were praying and/or some
rabbis or other people intervene, the Jews are released from custody.
The ADL issues a statement condemning the airline for not providing
cultural sensitivity training for their personnel. The airline
apologizes profusely and promises to implement more cultural
sensitivity training in the future so that this will never happen
again, and then a year later, the scenario repeats itself with
different Jews on a different airline.
Of course, the entire scenario could have probably been avoided if the
Jews had simply explained to the flight attendants what they were
doing, which according to the weblinked article, they did not. Even if
they didn't want to interrupt their prayers, they could have provided
an explanation before or after. But for some reason, they didn't want
to or didn't feel that they had to. I don't understand that at all.
Well, I guess I'm just blaming the victim again.
IIRC, the last time this happened, the airplane made an emergency
landing, and the Jewish man was actually arrested.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
No, Cindy, I agree with you this time. It would have been a very simple
matter for the one of the men to explain what they were going to do
_BEFORE_ they started to pray. Also, I believe, according to the
article, those men broke the law. They ignored the seat belt sign when
it was on and kept standing up (when it was time to do so during the
prayers). That would certainly add to the flight attendant's fears.
Also, at least as I understand it, safety (saving a life) comes first
and foremost, so standing up when the seat belt sign is on would be a
no-no. Finally, why couldn't those men have interrupted their prayers
to allay the fears of everyone else on the plane?

Perhaps those flight attendants hadn't yet had that part of their
sensitivity training. Frankly, I put 90% of the blame here on those men
for _THEIR_ insensitivity to the fears of others.
--
Shelly
cindys
2011-03-16 15:31:10 UTC
Permalink
snip

 Also, I believe, according to the
article, those men broke the law.  They ignored the seat belt sign when
it was on and kept standing up (when it was time to do so during the
prayers).  That would certainly add to the flight attendant's fears.
Also, at least as I understand it, safety (saving a life)
Again, "safety" is not the same as "saving a life." Saving a life
(pikuach nefesh) refers to a situation where loss of life is imminent,
such as if the plane had been in the process of crashing. There was no
situation of pikuach nefesh going on here. Much of the time, the
fasten seat belt sign is on because of turbulence or because the plane
is in the process of taking off or landing. The concern is that
someone is going to bump his head or fall down. Not that someone is
going to be killed. So, there was no pikuach nefesh here and no
violation of halacha.

snip
 Frankly, I put 90% of the blame here on those men
for _THEIR_ insensitivity to the fears of others.
Me too.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
sheldonlg
2011-03-16 15:36:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by sheldonlg
snip
Also, I believe, according to the
Post by sheldonlg
article, those men broke the law. They ignored the seat belt sign when
it was on and kept standing up (when it was time to do so during the
prayers). That would certainly add to the flight attendant's fears.
Also, at least as I understand it, safety (saving a life)
Again, "safety" is not the same as "saving a life." Saving a life
(pikuach nefesh) refers to a situation where loss of life is imminent,
such as if the plane had been in the process of crashing. There was no
situation of pikuach nefesh going on here. Much of the time, the
fasten seat belt sign is on because of turbulence or because the plane
is in the process of taking off or landing. The concern is that
someone is going to bump his head or fall down. Not that someone is
going to be killed. So, there was no pikuach nefesh here and no
violation of halacha.
OK, maybe I was too drastic, but bumping one's head _could_ lead to a
brain hemorrhage leading to death. I do think (though not sure) that
they violated a law when they stood up when the seat belt sign was on
(an it was not an emergency that they did so).
Post by sheldonlg
snip
Post by sheldonlg
Frankly, I put 90% of the blame here on those men
for _THEIR_ insensitivity to the fears of others.
Me too.
Nice to agree for a change.
Post by sheldonlg
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
--
Shelly
cindys
2011-03-16 16:32:17 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 16, 8:36 am, sheldonlg <***@thevillages.net> wrote:
snip
Post by sheldonlg
OK, maybe I was too drastic, but bumping one's head _could_ lead to a
brain hemorrhage leading to death.
The possibility of this eventuality is far too remote to be considered
pikuach nefesh.

 >I do think (though not sure) that
Post by sheldonlg
they violated a law when they stood up when the seat belt sign was on
I think so too. The airline captain/pilot is responsible for the
safety of everyone on board. If there is a passenger who refuses to
comply with the captain's instructions after repeatedly been told to
do so, I think the passenger is breaking the law and can be arrested
(if the airline wants to take it that far). This kind of
insubordination (for lack of a better word) compromises the safety of
everybody on board.

(I stand open to correction if what I have written in the above
paragraph is incorrect)
Post by sheldonlg
Post by cindys
snip
  Frankly, I put 90% of the blame here on those men
for _THEIR_ insensitivity to the fears of others.
Me too.
Nice to agree for a change.
Post by cindys
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
--
Shelly
Morris Goodman
2011-03-16 16:02:28 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:31:10 +0000 (UTC), cindys
Post by cindys
snip
 Also, I believe, according to the
article, those men broke the law.  They ignored the seat belt sign when
it was on and kept standing up (when it was time to do so during the
prayers).  That would certainly add to the flight attendant's fears.
Also, at least as I understand it, safety (saving a life)
Again, "safety" is not the same as "saving a life." Saving a life
(pikuach nefesh) refers to a situation where loss of life is imminent,
such as if the plane had been in the process of crashing. There was no
situation of pikuach nefesh going on here. Much of the time, the
fasten seat belt sign is on because of turbulence or because the plane
is in the process of taking off or landing. The concern is that
someone is going to bump his head or fall down. Not that someone is
going to be killed.
Unless of course, during turbulence, that someone hits the roof of the
cabin and then lands on someone else.
lee
2011-03-16 17:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Why were they praying on the plane anyway, are Alaska Airlines not
very reliable?
Morris Goodman
2011-03-16 18:40:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by lee
Why were they praying on the plane anyway, are Alaska Airlines not
very reliable?
As reliable/unreliable as most other domestic airlines.

I was once on a TWA transatlantic flight and TWA had borrowed an
aircraft from Gulf Air. There was more than a little consternation
among my fellow Jews on board when the flight safety cards turned out
to be in Arabic. That might have been a good reason for prayer!
m***@mm.huji.ac.il
2011-03-17 08:26:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by cindys
snip
Also, I believe, according to the article, those men broke the
law. They ignored the seat belt sign when it was on and kept
standing up (when it was time to do so during the prayers). That
would certainly add to the flight attendant's fears.
Also, at least as I understand it, safety (saving a life)
Again, "safety" is not the same as "saving a life." Saving a life
(pikuach nefesh) refers to a situation where loss of life is imminent,
such as if the plane had been in the process of crashing. There was no
situation of pikuach nefesh going on here. Much of the time, the
fasten seat belt sign is on because of turbulence or because the plane
is in the process of taking off or landing. The concern is that
someone is going to bump his head or fall down. Not that someone is
going to be killed. So, there was no pikuach nefesh here and no
violation of halacha.
Cindy, I was with you till the very last line. You gave a good
explanation of the difference between "safety" and "saving a life".
But that does not mean there was no violation of halacha. Standing
on a plane during prayers is a very big question. It need not be a
matter of "life and death" for the rules of "guarding one's health"
to apply. If it's indeed a matter of "saving a life" then _all_
prohibitions, except the Big Three, are waived. CYLRA.
Post by cindys
snip
Frankly, I put 90% of the blame here on those men
for _THEIR_ insensitivity to the fears of others.
Me too.
Usually when I fly, it's with at least 50% of the plane being O Jews.
So that is not a problem. I can see how a few people starting to
put on tefillin and davening, could be a frightening sight.
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
mm
2011-03-17 09:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Post by cindys
snip
Also, I believe, according to the article, those men broke the
law. They ignored the seat belt sign when it was on and kept
standing up (when it was time to do so during the prayers). That
would certainly add to the flight attendant's fears.
Also, at least as I understand it, safety (saving a life)
Again, "safety" is not the same as "saving a life." Saving a life
(pikuach nefesh) refers to a situation where loss of life is imminent,
such as if the plane had been in the process of crashing. There was no
situation of pikuach nefesh going on here. Much of the time, the
fasten seat belt sign is on because of turbulence or because the plane
is in the process of taking off or landing. The concern is that
someone is going to bump his head or fall down. Not that someone is
going to be killed. So, there was no pikuach nefesh here and no
violation of halacha.
Cindy, I was with you till the very last line. You gave a good
explanation of the difference between "safety" and "saving a life".
But that does not mean there was no violation of halacha. Standing
on a plane during prayers is a very big question. It need not be a
matter of "life and death" for the rules of "guarding one's health"
to apply. If it's indeed a matter of "saving a life" then _all_
prohibitions, except the Big Three, are waived. CYLRA.
Does death have to be imminent for it to be pikuach nefesh? Say one
is stuck in a cabin above the Arctic Circle, snowed in and the snow
won't subside for 6 months, and the only food is what is in the cabin,
which is treif, plus whatever you have with you that is kosher.

AIUI one doesn't have to wait until he is near death; he can plan
ahead and try to keep himself healthy from the start, which can mean
eating the treif food from near the start, and that is covered by
pikuach nefesh. Yes?

That certainly doesn't mean that safety is the same as saving a life.
Not at all.

And also, it doesn't take much to get them to turn on the seatbelt
light, plus the surfaces are designed to be not bone-breaking when you
hit them.

But these guys should have told hte stewardess. This is best handled
by asking where one can stand. In the same way some parents ask the
teacher if it's okay if their child takes off school for Jewish
holidays. (Although I don't think my mother ever asked. She just
told them I would take off. This is another topic.)
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Post by cindys
snip
Frankly, I put 90% of the blame here on those men
for _THEIR_ insensitivity to the fears of others.
Me too.
Usually when I fly, it's with at least 50% of the plane being O Jews.
So that is not a problem. I can see how a few people starting to
put on tefillin and davening, could be a frightening sight.
--
Meir

"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
m***@mm.huji.ac.il
2011-03-17 10:30:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by mm
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Post by cindys
snip
Also, I believe, according to the article, those men broke the
law.
snip
Post by mm
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Post by cindys
Also, at least as I understand it, safety (saving a life)
Again, "safety" is not the same as "saving a life." Saving a life
(pikuach nefesh) refers to a situation where loss of life is imminent,
such as if the plane had been in the process of crashing. There was no
situation of pikuach nefesh going on here.
snip
Post by mm
Post by m***@mm.huji.ac.il
Post by cindys
So, there was no pikuach nefesh here and no violation of halacha.
Cindy, I was with you till the very last line. You gave a good
explanation of the difference between "safety" and "saving a life".
But that does not mean there was no violation of halacha. Standing
on a plane during prayers is a very big question. It need not be a
matter of "life and death" for the rules of "guarding one's health"
to apply. If it's indeed a matter of "saving a life" then _all_
prohibitions, except the Big Three, are waived. CYLRA.
Does death have to be imminent for it to be pikuach nefesh? Say one
is stuck in a cabin above the Arctic Circle, snowed in and the snow
won't subside for 6 months, and the only food is what is in the cabin,
which is treif, plus whatever you have with you that is kosher.
AIUI one doesn't have to wait until he is near death; he can plan
ahead and try to keep himself healthy from the start, which can mean
eating the treif food from near the start, and that is covered by
pikuach nefesh. Yes?
Cute question. I _assume_ you're right, but I still think you should
first eat all the kosher food available. Assuming both kinds of food
have the same "shelf life" etc. CYLRA

snip
Post by mm
But these guys should have told hte stewardess. This is best
handled by asking where one can stand.
Someone else, I think Henry, made the same suggestion.
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
Sabba Hillel
2011-03-16 20:10:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by cindys
Post by JJ
Alaska Airlines has apologized for a weekend incident in which three
Orthodox Jewish businessmen triggered security concerns by conducting
a prayer ritual on board a flight to Los Angeles.
The men began praying out loud in Hebrew shortly after takeoff on
Flight 241 from Mexico City. Flight attendants alerted the flight
deck, which then called the tower and alerted law enforcement. When
the plane arrived at Los Angeles International Airport, it was met by
the FBI, Customs and Border Protection and airport police.
End of quote.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/airline-apologizes-for-plane...
Jay
-----
Don't you feel like this is deja vu? One or more Jewish men lay
tefillin on an airplane and start davening (praying). The flight
attendants don't know what's going on. They start questioning the men
who don't respond to their questions because they're not supposed to
interrupt their prayers. The passengers get nervous. Air traffic
control (or whomever) is notified that there is a problem on the
airplane (maybe terrorists). When the plane lands, the Jews are
detained by security personnel and/or the police. After the Jews
explain about the tefillin and that they were praying and/or some
rabbis or other people intervene, the Jews are released from custody.
The ADL issues a statement condemning the airline for not providing
cultural sensitivity training for their personnel. The airline
apologizes profusely and promises to implement more cultural
sensitivity training in the future so that this will never happen
again, and then a year later, the scenario repeats itself with
different Jews on a different airline.
Of course, the entire scenario could have probably been avoided if the
Jews had simply explained to the flight attendants what they were
doing, which according to the weblinked article, they did not. Even if
they didn't want to interrupt their prayers, they could have provided
an explanation before or after. But for some reason, they didn't want
to or didn't feel that they had to. I don't understand that at all.
Well, I guess I'm just blaming the victim again.
IIRC, the last time this happened, the airplane made an emergency
landing, and the Jewish man was actually arrested.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Actually, the last time, the Jewish man's sister attempted to explain
what was going on to the flight attendant and everything was fine
until the pilot decided to land in Atlanta and called ahead with an
alert. In that case, the Jewish man did not even know that anyone was
worried until the FBI showed up.

The problem is often that people do not listen to the explanation.

As far as standing up, one is allowed to daven sitting down when
necessary (even during the amidah - standing prayer). Actually, in the
past, I have had the flight attendant show me where I was able to
daven. I was on an international flight and would not have been able
to wait until we landed. On the last flight to Europe, our group had
to daven in the airport (Madrid) and we had no trouble. Usually if you
ask a policeman where you can daven or the flight attendant what you
can do, they will tell you what you can do. The only problem that can
arise is when someone else decides to panic..


--
Sabba - סבא הלל - Hillel
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
***@gmail.com | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water
http://sabbahillel.blogspot.com
Morris Goodman
2011-03-16 14:01:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by JJ
Alaska Airlines has apologized for a weekend incident in which three
Orthodox Jewish businessmen triggered security concerns by conducting
a prayer ritual on board a flight to Los Angeles.
The men began praying out loud in Hebrew shortly after takeoff on
Flight 241 from Mexico City. Flight attendants alerted the flight
deck, which then called the tower and alerted law enforcement. When
the plane arrived at Los Angeles International Airport, it was met by
the FBI, Customs and Border Protection and airport police.
End of quote.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/airline-apologizes-for-plane-prayer-scare/?hpt=T2
Jay
I've seen Jews praying in the British Airways terminal at JFK quite
often. I've also seen the Port Authority police being called to
investigate on more than one occasion. Don't they realise how bizarre
this might appear to people unfamiliar with our religious practices?
Especially in the current climate of air travel paranoia.
mm
2011-03-22 18:22:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:01:15 +0000 (UTC), Morris Goodman
Post by Morris Goodman
Post by JJ
Alaska Airlines has apologized for a weekend incident in which three
Orthodox Jewish businessmen triggered security concerns by conducting
a prayer ritual on board a flight to Los Angeles.
The men began praying out loud in Hebrew shortly after takeoff on
Flight 241 from Mexico City. Flight attendants alerted the flight
deck, which then called the tower and alerted law enforcement. When
the plane arrived at Los Angeles International Airport, it was met by
the FBI, Customs and Border Protection and airport police.
End of quote.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/airline-apologizes-for-plane-prayer-scare/?hpt=T2
Jay
I've seen Jews praying in the British Airways terminal at JFK quite
often. I've also seen the Port Authority police being called to
investigate on more than one occasion. Don't they realise how bizarre
this might appear to people unfamiliar with our religious practices?
Especially in the current climate of air travel paranoia.
The computer receipt for my last plane ticket said on it:

"CAUTION. When you see Jews praying, do not try to make an arrest
yourself. Airport police are specially trained for this. They know
how to tacle such persons without getting tangled in their strings and
straps. They know how to disarm their boxes. Do not endanger
yourself by trying this on your own."
--
Meir

"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
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