Discussion:
Is Germania Amalek?
(too old to reply)
galsaba
2007-02-21 12:14:45 UTC
Permalink
The Gemara in Megila Daf Vav Amud Beit mentions that Germamia is Edom,
and Yabet"z says Germamia is Germania of today.
so Germania is Edom.
But when we say today "zachor et Asher assa lecha Amalek", today we
mean Germania (Hanatzit).
Do we have any Mekorot that refer to Germania as Amalek?
or Edom as Amamlek?

Thanks,

galsaba
Herman Rubin
2007-02-21 19:23:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by galsaba
The Gemara in Megila Daf Vav Amud Beit mentions that Germamia is Edom,
and Yabet"z says Germamia is Germania of today.
so Germania is Edom.
But when we say today "zachor et Asher assa lecha Amalek", today we
mean Germania (Hanatzit).
Do we have any Mekorot that refer to Germania as Amalek?
or Edom as Amamlek?
Thanks,
galsaba
At the time of the Gemara, "Germania" was a set of tribes,
nothing which could be called a nation.

Even calling Rome Edom is a long stretch.

Clearly, from Jewish writings and actions, the Edomite
nation was considered as relatives of the Hebrews, and
in fact they were even converted en masse.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
***@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Jonathan J. Baker
2007-02-26 23:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman Rubin
Post by galsaba
The Gemara in Megila Daf Vav Amud Beit mentions that Germamia is Edom,
and Yabet"z says Germamia is Germania of today.
At the time of the Gemara, "Germania" was a set of tribes,
nothing which could be called a nation.
Even calling Rome Edom is a long stretch.
Clearly, from Jewish writings and actions, the Edomite
nation was considered as relatives of the Hebrews, and
in fact they were even converted en masse.
Yes. However, it's not Germania *is* Edom, but Germania *of* Edom,
i.e., in Chazal's parlance, Germania up there in Roman territory.
Note what the Gemara has to say about them: there are 300 princes in
Germamia of Edom, and every day one prince kills another, and if they
ever get together, they would destroy the world. Given that the
memra is from mid-4th century, it was fairly conscious of international
relations of the day, as a century later, the Germanic tribes got together
in the Sack of Rome. And when they really permanently united, in 1848,
they did try twice to take over the world (1914, 1939).

--
name: jon baker web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
address: ***@panix.com blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com
--
Jonathan Baker | Knock knock. Who's there? Mischa. Mischa who?
***@panix.com | Mishenichnas Adar I marbim besimcha ketanah.
Blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com Featuring: Rav Movie
YM
2007-02-21 19:48:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by galsaba
The Gemara in Megila Daf Vav Amud Beit mentions that Germamia is Edom,
and Yabet"z says Germamia is Germania of today.
so Germania is Edom.
But when we say today "zachor et Asher assa lecha Amalek", today we
mean Germania (Hanatzit).
Do we have any Mekorot that refer to Germania as Amalek?
or Edom as Amamlek?
Thanks,
galsaba
I don't have any other mekorot, but I do know that when Kaiser Wilhelm
II visited
Eretz Israel in 1898, the leader of the Old Yishuv in Jerusalem , Rav
Yosef Haim
Sonnefeld refused to go see him. Everyone one was mystified because
it
was a rare opportunity to see a melech and say the beracha on seeing
one.
He stated that Germany was Amalek and he didn't want to have anything
to do
with them. This is especially interesting because the Jews were
flourishing
in Germany at the time.
galsaba
2007-02-21 22:42:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by YM
Post by galsaba
The Gemara in Megila Daf Vav Amud Beit mentions that Germamia is Edom,
and Yabet"z says Germamia is Germania of today.
so Germania is Edom.
But when we say today "zachor et Asher assa lecha Amalek", today we
mean Germania (Hanatzit).
Do we have any Mekorot that refer to Germania as Amalek?
or Edom as Amamlek?
Thanks,
galsaba
I don't have any other mekorot, but I do know that when Kaiser Wilhelm
II visited
Eretz Israel in 1898, the leader of the Old Yishuv in Jerusalem , Rav
Yosef Haim
Sonnefeld refused to go see him. Everyone one was mystified because
it
was a rare opportunity to see a melech and say the beracha on seeing
one.
He stated that Germany was Amalek and he didn't want to have anything
to do
with them. This is especially interesting because the Jews were
flourishing
in Germany at the time.
This is amazing!
How can I read more about this??
Aaron
galsaba
2007-02-21 23:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by galsaba
Post by YM
Post by galsaba
The Gemara in Megila Daf Vav Amud Beit mentions that Germamia is Edom,
and Yabet"z says Germamia is Germania of today.
so Germania is Edom.
But when we say today "zachor et Asher assa lecha Amalek", today we
mean Germania (Hanatzit).
Do we have any Mekorot that refer to Germania as Amalek?
or Edom as Amamlek?
Thanks,
galsaba
I don't have any other mekorot, but I do know that when Kaiser Wilhelm
II visited
Eretz Israel in 1898, the leader of the Old Yishuv in Jerusalem , Rav
Yosef Haim
Sonnefeld refused to go see him. Everyone one was mystified because
it
was a rare opportunity to see a melech and say the beracha on seeing
one.
He stated that Germany was Amalek and he didn't want to have anything
to do
with them. This is especially interesting because the Jews were
flourishing
in Germany at the time.
This is amazing!
How can I read more about this??
Aaron- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395571394&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter
galsaba
2007-02-22 23:03:25 UTC
Permalink
Anyone can help me finding the article written Harav David Golinkin
that he wrote in March 2005 ? He wrote an article about the Natzim and
the connection to Amalek.

I found on the website the article that he posted in March 2006.
Here is the link:
http://www.schechter.edu/news/media_060310_jpost.htm
But this one has less details

Could you please email me the one posted in 2005?

Thanks,

Aaron
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2007-02-26 17:19:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by galsaba
Anyone can help me finding the article written Harav David Golinkin
that he wrote in March 2005 ? He wrote an article about the Natzim and
the connection to Amalek.
careful. He is not a rabbi.
He is of "conservative judaism"
He may have a few interesting things to say, just as a christian
website may have something interesting to say about a story from the
bible. wouldn't call the christian "Rav" or "HaRav".
He doesn't believe the Torah is from sinai. (which makes him less
serious than a religious christian)
He seems to be some kind of Leading Conservative minister.


<snip>
Herman Rubin
2007-02-28 02:31:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by galsaba
Anyone can help me finding the article written Harav David Golinkin
that he wrote in March 2005 ? He wrote an article about the Natzim and
the connection to Amalek.
careful. He is not a rabbi.
He is of "conservative judaism"
He may have a few interesting things to say, just as a christian
website may have something interesting to say about a story from the
bible. wouldn't call the christian "Rav" or "HaRav".
He doesn't believe the Torah is from sinai. (which makes him less
serious than a religious christian)
He seems to be some kind of Leading Conservative minister.
Other than some Christian fundamentalists and Orthodox Jews,
few who have studied the evidence believe that the Torah
could possibly be from Sinai.

Either that or God deliberately provided errors and misreadings
to convince us of this position.


<snip>
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
***@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2007-02-28 19:16:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman Rubin
Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by galsaba
Anyone can help me finding the article written Harav David Golinkin
that he wrote in March 2005 ? He wrote an article about the Natzim and
the connection to Amalek.
careful. He is not a rabbi.
He is of "conservative judaism"
He may have a few interesting things to say, just as a christian
website may have something interesting to say about a story from the
bible. wouldn't call the christian "Rav" or "HaRav".
He doesn't believe the Torah is from sinai. (which makes him less
serious than a religious christian)
He seems to be some kind of Leading Conservative minister.
Other than some Christian fundamentalists and Orthodox Jews,
few who have studied the evidence believe that the Torah
could possibly be from Sinai.
You refer to external evidence - archaeology.

Most jews have enough on their plate with the internal material. I
once sat up all night trying to figure out what Jacob did with some
sheep. Some with large dots, some with small dots, some with stripes.
And then there were the goats. Translations spoke of spots speckles
patches stripes rings. And there was a tricky bit about who was doing
what - between Jacob and Lavan.

Other than Christian fundamentalists and Orthodox jews, few have
studied the jewish bible. And regarding the external evidence that you
have in mind, archaeology for example - as it relates to the bible.
Few Orthodox or Non orthodox have studied it. And regarding those that
have, whether orthodox or non orthodox, they would usually have no
gounding in the subject and would just study it to refute an alleged
allegation , or to make an allegation against the jewish bible. Even
those that are neutral, and studying biblical arhcaeology, are not
studying archaeology for the sake of the archaeology, but only those
areas related to the bible. So their understanding of archaeology is
narrow.

Most rabbis don't know the archaeology. Those few people that few that
thave some understanding are quite unusual.. You are a professor with
a broad knowledge outside your area of expertise of statistics and
maths. You knwo archaeology, history, you use unix, no doubt you
program too. Micha Berger is a rabbi who also knows formal logic and
probably other forms of it, and other subjects. Lisa is a female whose
level of knowledge is perhaps similar to a rabbi, and she seems to
know her linguistics. And i'm sure both are very good programmers.
e.t.c. These are not joe shmoes.

Only a relative few have studied the evidence that you speak of.

I have enough on my plate with the internal stuff, (is diber
pronounced diber or deeber!!) but others that have studied the
external would disagree with you.

I suppose I have studied some external stuff a little bit. A little
astronomy(e.g. it's good to know that the moon goes clockwise and the
plane on which it orbits is at a 5 degree tilt to the ecliptic), and a
synodic month is more than 360 degrees. It helps to understand
judaism. And a little bit of hebrew grammar - just for the sake of
pronounciation, which may mean reading a little on phonetics - I'll
see. So I don't limit myself to just the internal.. But it's just a
lot of stuff to know!! Teaching myself. Like what Micha and Lisa
have done but on a minute scale.

Very few people do any of that at all.
Post by Herman Rubin
Either that or God deliberately provided errors and misreadings
to convince us of this position.
Of the few that have looked into archaeological evidence, the O ones
would disagree with you, as has happened on this newsgroup many times.

If you were really basing your statements purely on evidence then
you'd at least include some references to your claims about
archaeology, but in discussion you haven't, not even when it counts -
e.g. with Lisa, who knows her archaeology
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2007-03-01 05:33:28 UTC
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This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
j***@yahoo.co.uk
2007-03-01 22:34:24 UTC
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Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Herman Rubin
Post by j***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by galsaba
Anyone can help me finding the article written Harav David Golinkin
that he wrote in March 2005 ? He wrote an article about the Natzim and
the connection to Amalek.
careful. He is not a rabbi.
He is of "conservative judaism"
He may have a few interesting things to say, just as a christian
website may have something interesting to say about a story from the
bible. wouldn't call the christian "Rav" or "HaRav".
He doesn't believe the Torah is from sinai. (which makes him less
serious than a religious christian)
He seems to be some kind of Leading Conservative minister.
Other than some Christian fundamentalists and Orthodox Jews,
few who have studied the evidence believe that the Torah
could possibly be from Sinai.
Galsaba is orthodox. Between one orthodox person and another, my post
is appropriate.
Other than christian fundamentalists and Orthodox jews. Few have
studied the evidence.
And even amongst christian fundamentalists and orthodox jews, i'm not
sure what % study every word of the jewish bible - which is difficult.
It's at times tedious . I once sat up all night trying to figure out
what Jacob did with some spotted sheep(not little dots), ringed sheep,
and sheep with little dots.
And the evidence that you refer to most of the time is not even
internal. Such as the example I gave. Which if one is serious, takes
a long time to study.
The evidence you speak of, (and never source), is external,
archaeological evidence. I know that Rabbi Micha Berger is aware of
it, and Lisa perhaps moreso - in archaeology. Lisa may be
knowledgeable enough that were she male she could pass the smicha exam
almost straight away and be a rabbi. Rabbi Berger is even acquainted
with formal logic - and perhaps other forms of logic - how many
rabbis are like that! These are not joeshmoes.
I don't know what the situation is outside of the orthodox world or
outside of the fundamentalist christian world. Who has looked at the
evidence.. You're a professor with a broad knowledge outside your
area. so you're not exactly typical either. Most people are not
professors nor do they have the broad knowledge in history and
archaeology that you have.
And i'm sure that some of the orthodox and non orthodox people that
have looked into the archaeology are very amateur. Their knowledge of
it not being grounded in it, but just in looking at those aspects
relevant to their religious interest. Either in refuting an alleged
problem, or looking into it to allege a problem
Post by Herman Rubin
Either that or God deliberately provided errors and misreadings
to convince us of this position.
I haven't studied the archaeology. I'm aware that others have.
I've enough on my plate studying the internals. (like how to
pronounce diber or would that be deeber !)- Hide quoted text -
sorry the posts are so similar. I just posted one, saw it didn't
appear for a long while, then rewrote it. Now not just one appears,
but both.
It could be google's fault.

Lisa
2007-03-01 15:09:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman Rubin
Other than some Christian fundamentalists and Orthodox Jews,
few who have studied the evidence believe that the Torah
could possibly be from Sinai.
Either that or God deliberately provided errors and misreadings
to convince us of this position.
On the contrary. It's only by starting, a priori, from the view that
the Torah can't be from Sinai that one can reasonable conclude it to
be the patchwork monstrosity you claim it to be.

Lisa
Wilhelm Daimler Gottlieb
2007-02-26 12:48:20 UTC
Permalink
The verse "REMEMBER" is meant to remind all men of "the rule which holds
good for all generations, namely, that the scourge [the staff of G-d's
indignation] with which Israel is smitten will itself finally be smitten."
In the course of time this biblical injunction became so deeply rooted in
Jewish thought that many important enemies of Israel were identified as
direct descendents of Amalek. Thus the Tannactic Aggadah of the first
century C.E. identifies Amalek with Rome. The most outstanding example is
"Haman the Agagite" who is regarded as a descendant of Agag the Amalekite
king.



Mekhilta 181, Esth. 3:1, I Sam. 15:8



Some scholars feel the Chittim mention in the Gottsman Scrolls are the
Sicilians and are the descendants of Amalek, however there are those that
argue many of the members of the Sicilian Mafia including Jews fought
against Hitler in WWII therefore not all Sicilians demonstrate the behavior
of one with the spirit of Amalek.



In the past 100 years many peoples both of the middle east and Europe have
demonstrated behavioral characteristics of Amalekites especially the German
Nazis & Japanese of WWII under the misguided, unauthorized usurpation for
authority of government demonstrated by Adolf Hitler & Tojo YM"SH,Y'Sh,Y"ShU.
--
W. Gottlieb
Friendly Frum Fanatics
***@lycos.com
Wilhelm Daimler Gottlieb
2007-02-27 07:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by galsaba
The Gemara in Megila Daf Vav Amud Beit mentions that Germamia is Edom,
and Yabet"z says Germamia is Germania of today.
so Germania is Edom.
But when we say today "zachor et Asher assa lecha Amalek", today we
mean Germania (Hanatzit).
Do we have any Mekorot that refer to Germania as Amalek?
or Edom as Amamlek?
Thanks,
galsaba
The problem is not genealogy of people who may or may not be descendants of
Amalek since none of us can be sure who is a descendent of Amalek today, but
rather the problem is with those who are affected by or with the spirit of
Amalek.



I remember one time when I was a small child maybe 9 or 10 years of age. We
caught a chicken hawk and because the bird had a reputation for killing
chickens we decided to kill it. We poured gas on it and set it on fire.
Deep inside it saddened me watching the Hawk suffer at the hands of superior
beings like ourselves but once the match was lit it was to late to save the
hawks life. In my memory that seems to be the worst sin I have ever
committed and I'm truly sorry for being in that state of mind to do such a
mean, wicked thing to one of Hashem's creatures. I blame those actions on
the spirit of Amalek. That is why we must be very careful with whom we
elect to be our leaders because once the match of nuclear war is lit life as
we know it could change for the worst for all of us for many generations to
come.



Being cruel, being wicked to our fellow man, creating hatred where kindness
should prevail, being mean to the weak, having no respect for the elderly,
living by the notion that might makes right, causing pain to any person
without being in defense of ones own existence, loving violence, justifying
sin, intentional abrogation of the Mitzvoth that a person is a Jew or
non-Jew are all signs of a the behavioral habits of the spirit of Amalek.



Hashem loves all his creation and for those of us that are human beings we
are granted the right to repent because Hashem loves us and wants us to love
him as he teaches us in the Torah he gave Moshe Rabbenu to teach us the
Shemah. We are commanded to love Hashem with all our heart, soul and mind.



Why do we need to be commanded to love, obey and worship Hashem by observing
his Mitzvoth? Maybe the adversary named Satan wants us to worship him
first, so Hashem has given us the Torah so we know how to and can worship
only Hashem freely by being Sons of Light and the Children of G-d that are
mentioned both the Tannach and the Gottsman scrolls.



It is my own personal belief when addressing the issue of Jewish behavior I
can justify and will if necessary justify any acts of a Jew or Jewess be the
acts good or evil that said such act/s are or were committed in the will of
Hashem to bring about the erection of a Third Jewish Temple on the Beit
Hamikadash on the planet earth in Jerusalem, Eretz Israel.
--
W. Gottlieb
Friendly Frum Fanatics
***@lycos.com
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