Discussion:
Is this quote about women REALLY from the Talmud?
(too old to reply)
David Filmer
2004-11-18 22:11:27 UTC
Permalink
There is a quote floating around the Internet which is said to come
from the Talmud. The quote represents a nice sentiment, but I've come
to be skeptical of all such Internet claims. Is this quote REALLY from
the Talmud:

Be very careful if you make a woman
cry, because God counts her tears. The woman
came out of a man's rib. Not from his feet to be
walked on. Not from his head to be superior,
but from the side to be equal. Under the arm to
be protected, and next to the heart to be loved.
Robert
2004-11-19 02:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Filmer
There is a quote floating around the Internet which is said to come
from the Talmud. The quote represents a nice sentiment, but I've come
to be skeptical of all such Internet claims. Is this quote REALLY from
Be very careful if you make a woman
cry, because God counts her tears. The woman
came out of a man's rib. Not from his feet to be
walked on. Not from his head to be superior,
but from the side to be equal. Under the arm to
be protected, and next to the heart to be loved.
I tried looking these statements up in "The Book of Legends: Sefer
Ha-Aggadah", which contains many statements from the Mishna, Talmud and
midrash literature. I couldn't find it. Do you have a source for this
quote? I can look it up in the Talmud itself if I have some idea where to
look.

There are indeed many kind statements about women in the Talmud. However,
the Talmud also has many harsh things to say about women. For intance, "The
sages say that four traits apply to women: They are greedy, eavesdroppers,
lazy an djealous...Rabbi Yehoshua bar Nahmani adds: they are querulous and
garrulous. Rabbi Levy adds: they are thieves and gadabouts." Bereshit Rabbah
45:5 The Talmud says that "Ten measures of speech descended to the world;
women took nine" (Kid. 49b). Women are "light-minded" (Shab. 33b).

There are many more unkind and untrue things said about women: "Women were
feared as a source of temptation. In Babylon, possibly because of the
greater laxity in sexual matters among the general population, it was said
that a woman's voice is a sexual enticement as is her hair and her leg (Ber.
24a) and that one should under no circumstances be served at a table by a
woman (Kid. 70a). In all probability this is the reason for the extremely
harsh description of a woman, paralleled by the Church Fathers, as 'a
pitcher full of filth with its mouth full of blood, yet all run after her'
(Shab. 152a)." [Encyclopaedia Judaica, women]

That is not to say that the classical Jewish view is one-sided. We also know
that it s taught that "On the other hand it is said that a man without a
wife lives without joy, blessing, and good, and that a man should love his
wife as himself and respect her more than himself (Yev. 62b). When R. Joseph
heard his mother's footsteps he would say: 'let me arise before the approach
of the Shekhinah' (Kid. 31b). Israel was redeemed from Egypt by virtue of
its righteous women (Sot. 11b) man must be careful never to speak
slightingly to his wife because women are prone to tears and sensitive to
wrong (BM 59a). Women have greater faith than men (Sif. Num. 133) and
greater powers of discernment (Nid. 45b) and they are especially
tenderhearted (Meg. 14b)" [Women, Encyclopaedia Judacia]



We must take care that there is no such thing as "the Jewish view" of women
or "The Talmudic view" of women. No such single view exists. Rather,
classical Jewish works (midrash compilations, Mishna, Tosefta, and the two
Talmuds) contain a wide variety of viewpoints from different people, in
different lands, written in different eras. [Some Mishnaic material
obviously goes back to before the time of Hillel, while the final text of
Talmud Bavli has additions and changes by the Savoraim going well into 800
CE].

The complexity of the situation is well-discussed by JTS Talmud professor
Judith Hauptman, in her book "Rereading the Rabbis"



Fully acknowledging that Judaism, as described in both the bible and the
Talmud, was patriarchal, Judith Hauptman demonstrates that the rabbis of the
Talmud made significant changes in key areas of Jewish law in order to
benefit women. Reading the texts with feminist sensibilities--recognizing
that they were written by men and for men and that they endorse a set of
social relations in which men control women--the author shows that
patriarchy was not always and everywhere the same. Although the rabbis whose
rulings are recorded in the Talmud did not achieve equality for women--or
even seek it--they should be credited with giving women higher status and
more rights. For example, during the course of several hundred years, they
converted marriage from the purchase by a man of a woman from her father
into a negotiated relationship between prospective husband and wife. They
designated a bride's dowry to be one-tenth of her father's net worth,
thereby ending her Torah-mandated disenfranchisement with respect to
inheritance. They left the ability to grant a divorce in male hands but gave
women the possibility of petitioning the courts to force a divorce. Although
some of the developments may have originated in the surrounding Greco-Roman
culture, the rabbis freely chose to incorporate them into Jewish law.

http://learn.jtsa.edu/topics/reading/bookexc/hauptman_reread/



Shalom,

Robert Kaiser
David Filmer
2004-11-19 10:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Robert. Thanks for your reply.

This particular quote was forwarded to me (via e-mail) by a friend. He did
not cite "chapter and verse" (to use a Christian metaphor - I am a
Christian, as is my friend) - which was one of the things that made me
question the accuracy of the citation.

I Googled several key phrases and found this "quote" reproduced MANY times.
But none included "chapter and verse" from the Talmud. I'm sure you will
find MANY such refrences if you Google this yourself. Yet, several websites
which are devoted to dispelling Internet hoaxes (such as snopes.com) make no
mention of this "quote."

The quote smells "fishy" to me (prehaps it's a complete invention, or maybe
part of it is accurately quoted and part is not). The sentiment it
expresses is admirable (and agreeable to me), but it annoys me if someone
invents a sentiment (even a good one) and attempts to justify it by
ascribing it to a "reputable" source (the Talmud, the Christian Bible,
Confucious, whatever). A valid sentiment ought to stand on its own merits,
and not rely on lying about its source.
David Filmer
2004-11-19 20:30:01 UTC
Permalink
A little more Googling turned up this (with a citation):

He shall not afflict her; for God counts her tears.
One who honors his wife will be rewarded with wealth (B. M. 59b).

This is probably where the above "quote" got started. It looks like
maybe somebody took a single line out of the Talmud and added a bunch
of stuff to it.
cindys
2004-11-19 20:52:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Filmer
He shall not afflict her; for God counts her tears.
One who honors his wife will be rewarded with wealth (B. M. 59b).
This is probably where the above "quote" got started. It looks like
maybe somebody took a single line out of the Talmud and added a bunch
of stuff to it.
------------
I agree. Because the above citation really is not related to the rest of it.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Susan Cohen
2004-11-19 21:18:03 UTC
Permalink
A valid sentiment ought to stand on its own merits, and not rely on lying
about its source.
To be fair, people can be confused, rather than just trying to justify
themselves.

But I wanted to thank you for checking, rather than just repeating what
"everyone else says".

Susan
Marmarali100
2004-11-19 14:10:49 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Is this quote about women REALLY from the Talmud?
Date: 11/19/2004 10:09 AM Malay Peninsula Standard Time
There are indeed many kind statements about women in the Talmud. However,
the Talmud also has many harsh things to say about women.
[remainder sniped]

My perusal of your post indicates that about 80% of the citations are
mistranslated and misconstrued, both letobha as well as lera'a.

For the record, what he has said here does not faihfully represent the views
recorded in the Talmub Babli.

Because it is so long, it is beyond my scope to deal with each erroneous
citation.

I advise a craeful reader to study the original.

Ronnie
Adelle D. Stavis, Esq.
2004-11-19 13:19:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Filmer
There is a quote floating around the Internet which is said to come
from the Talmud. The quote represents a nice sentiment, but I've come
to be skeptical of all such Internet claims. Is this quote REALLY from
Be very careful if you make a woman
cry, because God counts her tears. The woman
came out of a man's rib. Not from his feet to be
walked on. Not from his head to be superior,
but from the side to be equal. Under the arm to
be protected, and next to the heart to be loved.
David,

Caveat - militant feminist now speaks - I can't vouch for its source. But
everything except the first line reminds me of either a sign, poem or some
sort of writing used in MS magazine and then co-opted for protest signs, way
back from the late '60's/early '70's.

I know I've seen it before. I'm not a talmudic scholar I can't vouch that
maybe someone lifted it for use by feminist writers. But I'm positive of the
context in which I read it.

Adelle
Art Werschulz
2004-11-19 13:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi.

At least the first part of the quote is found in the movie "A Stranger
Among Us".

Shabbat shalom.
--
Art Werschulz (***@comcast.net)
207 Stoughton Ave Cranford NJ 07016
(908) 272-1146
Susan Cohen
2004-11-19 21:22:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Art Werschulz
Hi.
At least the first part of the quote is found in the movie "A Stranger
Among Us".
One good reason to doubt it's authenticity :-)

Susan
Post by Art Werschulz
Shabbat shalom.
--
207 Stoughton Ave Cranford NJ 07016
(908) 272-1146
cindys
2004-11-19 13:53:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Filmer
There is a quote floating around the Internet which is said to come
from the Talmud. The quote represents a nice sentiment, but I've come
to be skeptical of all such Internet claims. Is this quote REALLY from
Be very careful if you make a woman
cry, because God counts her tears. The woman
came out of a man's rib. Not from his feet to be
walked on. Not from his head to be superior,
but from the side to be equal. Under the arm to
be protected, and next to the heart to be loved.
--------
I googled it too. There are many non-Jewish sites which state this passage
is "from the Talmud" but none of the sites mentions the tractate or page. I
have heard this sentiment before, and it's a lovely sentiment, but it
doesn't sound like talmud to me.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
David Filmer
2004-11-20 18:16:38 UTC
Permalink
I think I found the answer to my own question, and posted it already, but I
see several other responses later than my answer-post and think that I
should have posted my answer directly to the question instead of buried four
threads deep. So I'll re-post what I found. It appears the first line of the
"quote" is, indeed, drawn from the Talmud, but the rest seems the invention
of some unknown (to me, anyway) writer.

A little more Googling turned up this (with an apparently genuine citation
from the Talmud, from a reputable Jewish website):

He shall not afflict her; for God counts her tears.
One who honors his wife will be rewarded with wealth (B. M. 59b).

This is probably where the above "quote" got started. It looks like maybe
somebody took a single line out of the Talmud and added a bunch of stuff to
it.
Henry Goodman
2004-11-20 18:54:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Filmer
I think I found the answer to my own question, and posted it
already, but I
Post by David Filmer
see several other responses later than my answer-post and think that I
should have posted my answer directly to the question instead of buried four
threads deep. So I'll re-post what I found. It appears the first line of the
"quote" is, indeed, drawn from the Talmud, but the rest seems the invention
of some unknown (to me, anyway) writer.
A little more Googling turned up this (with an apparently genuine citation
He shall not afflict her; for God counts her tears.
One who honors his wife will be rewarded with wealth (B. M. 59b).
This is probably where the above "quote" got started. It looks like maybe
somebody took a single line out of the Talmud and added a bunch of stuff to
it.
I have looked up the reference to the Talmud you quote. It is not on
B.M. 59b but on 59a.
Also 2 separate quotations by different Rabbis some lines apart.
Translation below is Soncino's
(1) Rab said: One should always be be heedful of wronging his wife,
for since her tears are frequent she is quickly hurt
....
(2) R. Helbo said: One must always observe the honour due to his wife,
because blessings rest on a man's home only account of his wife
--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net
Y. Macales
2004-11-20 18:19:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Filmer
There is a quote floating around the Internet which is said to come
from the Talmud. The quote represents a nice sentiment, but I've come
to be skeptical of all such Internet claims. Is this quote REALLY from
Be very careful if you make a woman
cry, because God counts her tears. The woman
came out of a man's rib. Not from his feet to be
walked on. Not from his head to be superior,
but from the side to be equal. Under the arm to
be protected, and next to the heart to be loved.
If we go back to the prime source of the Torah which is the
Tanach (Bible) we see several things which disprove the
current view by radicals that "women were treated as
chattel in Biblical times"

(1) In Breishit (Genesis) when Eliezer goes to find a wife
for Yitzhak (Isaac) negotiations take place between Eliezer
and Rivkas father and/or brother, but before anything
is concluded Rivka is asked directly if she was willing
to go with Eliezer to the Land of Canaan. Thus we see
that women could not be forced to marry against their will.

(2) The famous reply of Elkana in the Book of Shoftim (Judges)
to his wifes lament that she had no children "Am I not
better to you than 10 sons?", refuting the idea that women
were viewed as baby-producing machines.

(3) Avraham is told (again in Bereishit) by G-d to listen
to "do everything [your wife] Sara tells you" showing she was on
a higher level of prophecy than he was. Note that after Sara
died and Avraham purchased the Ma'arat Hamachpela (Tomb of
the Patriarchs in Hevron), even though he remarried, had more
children and lived to a ripe old age, his spiritual growth
ended and we hear no more about him, showing that his
spiritual greatness was totally dependent on her.

(4) I recall reading many years ago in Rabbi Hertz's commentary
on the Torah a quote from one of the great Greek classics
where a woman interjects a comment into a conversation
between two men and one replies to her something to the
effect that "woman-get back to your kneading bowl (or spinning
wheel or whatever) this is mens' business, don't butt in!") and
Rabbi Hertz points out there is not a single instance of
anyone in the Tanach talking like this. If anyone can give
me this quote, I would appreciate it.
toichen
2004-11-21 02:33:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Filmer
There is a quote floating around the Internet which is said to come
from the Talmud. The quote represents a nice sentiment, but I've come
to be skeptical of all such Internet claims. Is this quote REALLY from
Be very careful if you make a woman
cry, because God counts her tears.
A very similar quote can be found in Baba Metzia 59a.
toichen
Post by David Filmer
The woman
came out of a man's rib. Not from his feet to be
walked on. Not from his head to be superior,
but from the side to be equal. Under the arm to
be protected, and next to the heart to be loved.
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